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They have great fighting spirit. They would make great soldiers.
Obviously.
Avi K:
But just as they don’t want to be indoctrinated in a Catholic Church (which at least believes in some form of G-d), they all the more so don’t want to be shmaded in the Zionist army.They obviously don’t believe that the Torah protects. If the Torah protects, they should go to the Beis Medrash and learn as a zechus that the law requiring Yeshiva bochurim to go to the army should be cancelled.
I am not so sure they can make great soldiers given a combination of weak beliefs and poor judgment. They should be given some safe tasks first, like guarding prisons or talking to remaining demonstrators until they prove themselves.
The Zionist Army isn’t worthy of them. They are opposed up Znus, whereas the IDF values Znus and engages in it in a widespread manner.
I don’t think the OP understands how armies work. The army trains it’s soldiers in boot camp to follow orders. These demonstrators have shown that they will not listen to orders. Even combat soldiers that have previously fought in Gaza don’t want to fight there anymore and you want Chareidi demonstrators to join the army? The Government needs to win the hearts and minds of the Chareidi public before they will agree to join. Otherwise they are just forcing them to join the Arab camp.
only the boys not learning full time, they can join the frum units
They obviously believe that the Torah protects. Thats why they are learning whenever not protesting.
The reason why they protest is because they listen to the Sages who advised to protest.
Because the torah commanded them to listen to the Sages.
So , listening to Sages is another form of listening to the Torah , which protects.
So yes, protesting protects from the gezerat shmad which is imposed on them by your friends.
.They cannot be drafted because they’re are already in the Army: the Army of Jewish Resistance to Secular Dictatorship
No. Learning Torah has been a mode of living and beingness. There not trained nor should they. As well no ism or ists. We are Yidden and evil of Christian and Muslim minds or lack of it we are not zionists we live near Zion. We are Jews period not Americans or trash as you relate. Shane on all of you. This isn’t a discussion or debate it’s nazism
Sara Rifka,
You live in a country, surrounded by enemies. Torah is against worshipping force and might, but Torah is not against having an army. When Torah gives a brocha that you will defeat the enemy – it will be, and was, with your army. And if there is a need for the army, then you can’t say “my blood is redder than yours”. This is also our tradition.And, while learning Torah is a great thing for everyone, we never had in recent history luxury of large part of population learning and doing nothing else. Great Volozhin yeshiva had up to 400 students.
@Always_Ask_Questions:
The Torah is very much against Zionism and its army. Zionism is, of course, diametrically opposed to Judaism. That means that Jews obviously do not belong in that army. That also means that the brachos given to Jews about their army defeating their enemies are totally irrelevant to that Zionist army as that army is a total “slap in the face” to G-d. Hashem, of course, desires the well-being and safety of His children, regardless, but that has zero to do with that Zionist army (and “State”, for that matter).The gedolim addressed why there is a need for more Torah learners today. As well, large portions of European Jewry had assimilated back then; see Rav Miller on the topic, for example. As Rav Elchonon wrote, the two idols served by Jews then were nationalism and socialism, so Hashem sent an unholy mix of both of those – the Nazis – as a “stick”… So, had there been more Torah, that would have prevented at least some, if not all, of that. So, they could have used more Torah learners back then, too.
Katan, you are trying to solve complex problem, while lacking awareness of the discussions you yourself held several days ago. We are not even talking about ideologies of 100 years ago that seem to touch your heart so much. We are talking about a person who lives in a country and has certain obligations as a citizen.
Once full-scale war broke out after the State of Israel
declared its existence on May 14, 1948 [CE]
Reb Shraga Feivel’s [Mendlowitz] thoughts
were never far from Eretz Yisrael.A group of students saw him outside the Mesivta building
one day, talking excitedly with Rabbi Gedaliah Schorr
and gesticulating rapidly with the newspaper held in his hand.“If I were your age,” he [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz] told the students,
“I would take a gun and go to Eretz Yisrael.”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz, the architect of Torah in America
(chapter 26, page 338) by Yonoson Rosenblum for Artscroll / Mesorah,
year 2001 CE, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz wanted to take a gun,
so he could fight to defendEretz Yisrael.PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah.PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN To Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas,
and taught there for 25 years.PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was known as
“the premier architect of Torah in American history.”@Always_Ask_Questions
The Zionist ideology to which you refer by implication is the same – or worse – than 100 years ago; you can read the WZO and AZM’s official platform and documents in case you had any doubts about that.Regarding your assertion that they have a responsibility to be shmaded in the Zionist army because they are citizens, this is not true, of course. The Zionists invaded that land over a century ago against the wishes of the Jews there. Furthermore, the first Zionist “Prime Minister”, David Green, made an unlimited deal with Agudah that Torah learners would be exempt from that army. So, they have zero obligations to join that army despite that they are unfortunately being ruled by the Zionists.
And even if they weren’t learning Torah, Zionism and its army are shmad, even worse than typical “religious coercion” (because the wicked Zionists heretically and idolatrously redefine Judaism, as opposed to telling you to adopt a goyish religion).
@SQUARE_ROOT
Please stop spamming these boards. It is disingenuous to take an emotional supposed statement from Rabbi SF Mendlowitz made at the height of the whole false excitement after the founding of that idol “State”, especially when all that was generally known then was Zionist propaganda, and he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight that anyone today could have.Avi > what do your gedolim say about Internet usage?
Not sure where is this coming from? I presume everyone in this discussion got a psak allowing using internet!
To your question, I do not recall asking shailos on this. When internet was starting, I did help a couple of rabbis to set up websites and mailing lists. The only negative reaction was form one rebetzin that vetoed posting family pictures on the website. Presumably, ayin harah, not strictly privacy. This was before instagram, obviously. I did listen to some Jewish organizations focused on kids & internet, and took some of their advice to heart.
The closest possible answer – I asked recently whether yeshivos need to teach safe driving (based on a gemorah in avodah zorah that R Akiva and Rav Yehudah were teaching safe travelling). Rav acknowledge the need but refused to switch from teaching gemorah and poskim to common sense, suggesting instead to rely on “good math and English education” that will enable you to read and understand literature on the subjects you need in your life, starting with marriage. So, this position should also apply to internet.
Katan > The Zionists invaded that land over a century ago against the wishes of the Jews there.
First, whatever the history, if you are a citizen of the country, the laws apply to you. Second, most charedim are not descendants from those who were there, but arrived later thanks to Zionist help or/and visas. But, you know, Russian governance over Jews was also not legitimate: Jews did not live in Russia with few exceptions, and then Russia occupied Poland where Jews had certain autonomy rights. That did not save Jews from the Army.
> made an unlimited deal with Agudah
Now, you are worshipping a prime minister of 80 years ago. A prime minister is not able to obligate future governments with private agreements.
You are continue disappointing us by staking out principled positions and then revealing that you really did not think through any serious arguments to defined them. You made me more of a Zionist than I was before I started talking to you.
@avi k
because the torah mandates this hishtadlut.
simple .
which protects , because they are listening to the torah
as does – not enlisting
that’s also listening to the torah
because he torah mandates listening to the sages who instructed not to enlist
the q is on you –
why do you think you are exempt from listening to the sages ?
.Always_Ask_Questions:
“> made an unlimited deal with AgudahNow, you are worshipping a prime minister of 80 years ago. A prime minister is not able to obligate future governments with private agreements.
You are continue disappointing us by staking out principled positions and then revealing that you really did not think through any serious arguments to defined them. You made me more of a Zionist than I was before I started talking to you.”
He wasn’t simply “a prime minister 80 years ago”. He founded that idol “State”. But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
@always_ask_questions
you said:
“You made me more of a Zionist than I was before”So be it. Like Eliyuhi Hnuvi said, if Hashem is G-d go with His Torah, if Zionism is your god go with it”
You can’t be “more” of apikorus so nothing lost for you to become “more” of a zionist, but you CAN be more of a fool to think you can be both a Yid AND a Zionist.katan > But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
I am not sure how this works in a legal sense. There are laws and then there are private positions of politicians. Then, politicians lose elections or retire. New politicians have new views. I understand that Israel early on had a one-sided government with many long-term politicians, so negotiating with Ben Gurion felt to some as negotiating with the medina itself. Still, this does not change legal reality.
And,, again and again, it seems that you are referring to a position that was reasonable in 1950, when Ben Gurion was in power, but somehow you are frozen in time and did not give a thought how things changed 70 years later.
AAQ: If a country makes an agreement with a group, future governments cannot unilaterally revoke it.
Think of the American government agreements with the Native Americans (better known as Indians). The US can’t cancel it today and say they aren’t bound by the American government that agreed to it 100, 75 or 50 years ago.
Like the Indians in America, the Chareidim predate, by far, the Zionists in living in Eretz Yisroel.
some > So be it.
so, you don’t feel responsible that your arguments made me into a Zionist? So, you and havereha repeat views of gedolei yisroel ad nauseum and then fail in defending their kavod by bringing feeble arguments? I think you started well by quoting solid sources, but it is not sufficient to deal with reality of today. I think you are duty bound to go to “judges of your time” as Torah requires and ask them to explain to you, and to us, how those views transfer to modern times. I know you yourself have no shailos, so you don’t feel such a need, but you should do it for the of the reading public.
He wasn’t simply “a prime minister 80 years ago”. He founded that idol “State”. But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
[katan]According to katan – the first PM of the medina could obligate the medina 80 years later….
that shows the tenuous grasp on reality katan possesses ….
Not only is katan deficient in the torah and its analysis …
even to plain reality staring in to your face , to which the torah is meant to be applied, he is deficient …
how can his maskana count at all ?
.
.AAQ:
This was not “private positions of politicians”. Agudah predicated their “acceptance” of that “State” on the guarantee that this be the established and unchanging rule of their “State”.As well, it is even more reasonable now than back then. It is not at all “frozen in time”. Their first “prime minister” David Green stated explicitly that the reason he wanted everyone in the army is to turn Jew into Zionist (and for the women to be there for immorality), and that was why Agudah insisted that the chareidim be exempt. Given the appalling drop in morality worldwide in the decades since, and the worsening of heretical and idolatrous Zionist ideology since then, this position remains not only reasonable but even more urgent today than it was then. Regardless, it is certainly no less urgent now than then.
@always_ask_questions
I feel like I’m arguing with a chatbot.
You wrote “more of a zionist”. I certainly didn’t make you a zionist! Reread what I wrote.> Like the Indians in America, the Chareidim predate, by far, the Zionists in living in Eretz Yisroel.
Position of Indians is defined in treaties and laws. What is the document behind the charedi claim, let’s analyze that?
> Like the Indians in America, the Chareidim predate, by far, the Zionists in living in Eretz Yisroel.
An interesting claim. Maybe Israel should let charedim have casinos. Indians though have strict lineage rules. You can’t just dress up in feathers, pick up a tomahawk and join. So, those Indian rights should be assigned to those whose relatives were part of the old yishuv. The rest are in EY _thanks_ to Zionists and should show hakarat hatov.
Show of hands – who is here a descendant of the old yishuv?
katan > . Agudah predicated their “acceptance” of that “State” on the guarantee that this be the established and unchanging rule of their “State”.
Let’s clarify confusion here: 1947 letter
1) clearly says that this is not a legal commitment as Sochnut can’t obligate the future state (something we are arguing here)
2) does not even talk about military service.Here it is, quoting from the June 1947 letter:
From: The Jewish Agency for Palestine, etc.
To: The World Organization of Agudath Israel, etc., Jerusalem
… We were satisfied to hear that you understand that there is no body authorized to determine in advance the constitution of the state, and that the state will be, in some spheres, free to determine its constitution and regime according to its citizens’ wishes.Still, the Executive appreciates your demands, and is aware that these are matters that worry not only the members of Agudath Israel, but also many of the religious faithful in all Zionist parties or in no party, and it is sympathetic to your demands that the Agency’s Executive inform you of its position regarding the issues you have brought up, and what it is willing to do, as far as its influence and directives reach, in order to fulfill your wishes regarding the said issues.
The Agency’s Executive has authorized the undersigned to formulate its position regarding the issues you have mentioned at the meeting. The position of the Agency’s Executive is as follows: shabbat … kashrut … marital law … education
> This was not “private positions of politicians”.
Separately, there is October 1948 defence ministry regulation that exempted (400) full-time learners from service [Torato_Umanuto]. This is not a part of the pre-state agreement (see previous post). Ben Gurion was both prime minister and defence minister.
@AAQ
Show of hands ?
my great grandparents immigrated from Russia in the 1800’s , but the evil SC traumatized my son with their terror tactics re his enlistment without any legal basis …
.
.@ujm
If a country makes an agreement with a group, future governments cannot unilaterally revoke it.Think of the American government agreements with the Native Americans (better known as Indians). The US can’t cancel it today and say they aren’t bound by the American government that agreed to it 100, 75 or 50 years ago.
[ujm]
—This BG-Agudah agreement is nothing like a treaty between nations
not in a legal sense , nor was it formulated or understood as such at the time
you have to read reality as it really is
counterproductive to defend a rightful cause with baseless claims
it is nothing more than something akin to a coalition agreement ….
and we all know
how durable , trustworthy and enforceable they are …
.
.Avi k
> Haredim served in war of independence .
correct .
that was in 1948.
but the army under the command of the woke SC , in 2025 is a totally different army ….
.
.yankel > This BG-Agudah agreement is nothing like a treaty between nations
right, as I showed ^, (1) that pre-medinah agreement did not even talk about the army, other issues, and (2) it explicitly says that this agreement is not binding on the future state – (3) even at that time, not 80 years later. So, with these 3-strong argument, I am sure the poster will change his mind.
yankel >my great grandparents immigrated from Russia in the 1800’s
yasher koach to them, so not really “old yishuv” but still. 1800s is a long time period – were they students of Gra or part of one of the Zionist waves at the end of the century?
@AAQ
not students of Gra , they came towards the end of that century , but were not part of the zionist wave .
they were fully haredi
.late 19th century movement was usually supported by Zionists and general Jewish public, not just the several rich people who usually get credit.
I found a somewhat-modernishe (but not socialist or zionist) newspaper from those times, where my great-grandfather is on the list of people at a wedding who contributed to a fund supporting Jews in EY.
@Avi K – HaKatan cannot and will not present direct citations that back anything he says. He just provides generally well-known quotations, statements, arguments or vague references to sefarim that support his argument. We can press him all day long about providing sources, he simply won’t do it. Maybe we’ll get a reference to a sefer or a quote from the same 4-5 Rabbonim he likes to quote.
His arguments cannot be taken seriously and should be treated as mere rhetoric.
Your post Re Katan – is a Correct observation
.
.@ZSK and @yankel-berel:
The truth is not merely rhetoric; it is the truth, regardless of my inability to provide precise page numbers for you. But you can, for example, open up a Kovetz Maamarim and easily find what I quoted from Rav Elchonon. And you can easily open up Maaseh Ish and other sefarim and see what the Chazon Ish held. You can also refer to the archives of whatever Israeli newspaper it was in which the Brisker Rav published an ad, on which the Gerrer Rebbe and others signed, that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.These are actual quotes, and the truth, of course. Since you have no answer to any of that, you sadly resort to dismissing it as “rhetoric” rather than doing the intellectually honest alternative of looking it up for yourself and/or taking the facts to a non-Zionist Rabbi who actually knows the sugya and asking them.
HaKatan, please could you give me some quotes from Chofetz Chaim. I looked them up and could not find any so far.
katan quotes selectively — that’s besides his frequent misrepresenting of basic facts and history .
he will never quote imrei emet in osef michtavim where writes in praise of rav kuk …
he will never quote imrei emet writing about political rights for the jews in EY as ‘tov’ …
he will never react to the essence of his opponent’s argument or logic
all katan does , is : repeat , repeat … and again repeat his obsolete cliche’s
he seems a very nice guy as a person , but a terrible debater …
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