should trolls be allowed to study gemara?

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  • #618053

    Sparkly
    Member

    should trolls be allowed to study gemara?

    #1161497

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does daf yomi count?

    #1161498

    Sparkly
    Member

    daas yochid – yes it does.

    #1161499

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    Lol. Trolls is an internet term, so clearly according to those who hold any use of the internet is assur, probably not.

    To the extent this post is a reference to me, I have gone thru my story before in the OTD thread. I can assure you my intention is not to troll.

    I enjoy the discussion and I read law briefs not just on cases I work on, but major issues just for fun. To this day, I learn if I can because I enjoy it and also because I feel spiritual when I do.

    They really did not know what to do with me at Hebrew academy because I come from a background where my parents know nothing, but wanted a private school. I learned Gemara better than many of their orthodox students and was I think the only one in the advanced gemara class who was not from a religious family.

    They allowed it because most of the Rabbis there concluded that I had good neshama, and that there was a chance I would become orthodox. I ended up marrying a Young Israel girl, but for a host of reasons never became fully religious.

    In any case, my intention here is not to troll.

    #1161500

    Joseph
    Participant

    I don’t think the OP had you in mind, miamilawyer.

    #1161501

    Of course they should. Ignorant trolls are just boring, annoying and obnoxious; knowledgeable ones can be very entertaining.

    #1161502

    Sparkly
    Member

    Very good explanation of what a troll is from wiki ” is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement”.

    #1161503

    charliehall
    Participant

    All Jews are allowed to study gemara. If you start out learning Torah for the wrong reason you will eventually come to study it for the right reason. Just remember that it is not merely an intellectual exercise but the writing of our holiest sages who were trying to determine how to follow HaShem’s Will.

    #1161505

    Sam2
    Participant

    No. It’s a B’feirush Tosfos.

    #1161506

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    @sam2. Just out of curiosity, what tosfos are you referring to since I am quite sure that Tosfos did not discuss the internet and the term “troll” refers to the internet.

    Indeed, the definition posted above starts “is a person who sows discord on the Internet”

    To the extent you are equating the word troll with rasha or apikores or a word of similar ilk, they are not exactly the same.

    As I (to some extent jokingly said above), the whole question is a little silly because much of the charedi community assurs the internet in its entirety, and presumably (even Joseph) those posting here do not hold this, and the more modern communities are more liberal with who they will teach (example, me).

    #1161507

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Halomed al menas lekanter, noach lo shelo nivra. There is no guarantee that hamaor shebah machziran lemutav if the learning is al menas lekanter.

    #1161508

    Sam2
    Participant

    miamil: What midwesterner said.

    #1161509

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    @midwesterner and @sam: Ok, I change my opinion a little. See below.

    In a nutshell, many places chazal says that do something for the wrong reason, it will eventually turn into the right reason, or as long as you keep connection to torah, there is hope, but they also clearly did not want reshaim learning and poisoning the well.

    The baalei haTosfos tried to synthesize all these ideas with various quotes (including the one you cite) which are summarized by an article I found and quoted below

    Article is written by Dr. Benzion Sorotzkin, Psyd. discussing educational rewards and cites to many of the different places that the concept of lshmo vs lo lshmo are discussed.

    So despite my initial doubt that tosfos could be relevant to trolling on an anonymous internet board, (and I still note that someone who trolls an internet board could still learn lshmo), I suppose I can see the argument that no one should learn who is doing it to mess with others (tosfot) and I agree that if someone is learning to be able to troll on an internet board, I suppose that might fall within the citations.

    #1161510

    haha i literally thought you were talking bout trolls like the big green scary one from harry potter

    #1161511

    You must be new to the interwebs.

    #1161512

    jewishfeminist lol actually not …confession for today i was on this coffee room when i was 14 haha..but i dont see the question why they shouldnt be able to

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