May 8, 2016 1:30 am at 1:30 am #617682OkialeMember
Since I’m only 15 and therefore obviously not married, I guess I’m not supposed to wear a Tallis, but since I got to a conservative shul and everyone wears a Tallis post-Bar Mitzvah , should I as well?May 8, 2016 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1152140zahavasdadParticipant
Generally Sephardim wear Tallisim, but Askenzim dont at that age
Just some advice here, this forum is not really the best place for judaic advice, you are much better off going to something like NCSY and ask these questionsMay 8, 2016 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1152141The FrumguyParticipant
Why do think you DON’T want to? Do you feel that it’s against custom? If so, then perhaps you’d feel more comfortable in a traditional, Orthodox shul.
Hatzlacha.May 8, 2016 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1152142screwdriverdelightParticipant
You should definitely wear a tallis. There’s nothing wrong with unmarried boys wearing a tallis (there’salready at least one thread about the subject, which I’m too lazy to link,) By all means, wear a tallis, and be zoche to all the blessings that come from it.
As an aside, it would be best if you can meet an Orthodox rabbi who can guide you. Also better if you can find an Orthodox shul to daven in.May 8, 2016 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1152143
Ashkenaz was the word for Germany. German Jews often wear a Talis starting with Bar Mitzvah.
My maternal side is German, my paternal side Litvak. When it came time for my Bar Mitzvah, Opa bought me a Talis. My father explained to me that it was the custom on mom’s side of the family. I and my older single brother wore a Talis when we visited with Oma and Opa and attended their Yekkah shul. We didn’t wear them in our home shul.
I once hear Opa asked why the Germans started wearing a Talis at Bar Mitzvah and the Eastern Europeans not: His condescending reply: ‘The easterners were far too poor to afford both a Talis and Tefillin for the Bar Mitzvah boy. The boy might even receive the Tefillin of a dead ancestor, but the dead ancestor was buried in his Talis and it was not available for reuse. Instead the bride’s family was expected to buy the groom a Talis at marriage. Opa had only daughters, mom was the only one not to marry a Yekkah, Opa did not buy my father a Talis.May 8, 2016 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1152144mw13Participant
I’m going to echo zahavasdad’s sentiments:
Wearing a tallis before marriage is dependent entirely on minhag, with the minhag of the Sephardim (from the Arabic countries) and Yekkes (from Germany) wearing a tallis before marriage, while the rest of Ashkenazim (from Europe) do not. So this particular minhag can be fairly easily discerned if you know you’re (father’s) family lineage.
But this forum is really not the place to ask about practical halacha; we are not Rabbis, and we do not necessarily know what is the correct Halacha. Okiale, you must find an Orthodox Rabbi in your area who can answer your questions, and give you custom-tailored guidance for your particular situation; we cannot do that for you.
But in the meanwhile, I would suggest that you take down the phone number of the Lakewood Bais Horaah (732-905-9992); they have a Rabbi constantly on call to answer practical Halacha questions.May 8, 2016 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1152145feivelParticipant
Listen to the advice of mw13.May 8, 2016 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1152146–Participant
The easterners were far too poor to afford both a Talis and Tefillin for the Bar Mitzvah boy. The boy might even receive the Tefillin of a dead ancestor, but the dead ancestor was buried in his Talis and it was not available for reuse.
The practice of Eastern Europeans not wearing a Talis as Bar Mitzvah predates the era when Western Europe was considered wealthier than Eastern Europe.May 8, 2016 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1152147
The Jews of Eastern Europe came from Germany where the tradition of wearing the Talis from Bar Mitzvah existed.
I would challenge you to show when the Pale was considered wealthier than Germany. I never used the term Western Europe. Those in France and Benelux did not have the same custom as Germany.May 9, 2016 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1152148DaMosheParticipant
Originally, everyone wore a tallis even before being married. During the black plague, when people were dying at an extremely high rate, they wanted to encourage people to get married earlier, and have children, so that the communities would survive. To incentivize it, the Rabbis at the time changed the rule to be that you wear a tallis after being married. People married earlier to wear the tallis. (At least, this was what I was told by a Rav a number of years ago.)
I would assume that the groups which wear a tallis before marriage never had the rule changed, so they still follow the original customs.May 9, 2016 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1152149
a nice Ravameisseh…………
Unfortunately no facts to back it up and the Bubonic plague affected the whole of Europe.May 9, 2016 2:05 am at 2:05 am #1152150Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Waiting until marriage is mentioned by the Maharil, so it isn’t a specifically eastern thing historically. Seems like the original minhag was probably not to wait until marriage, then all Ashkenazim waited until marriage, then the Yekkes went back to the original while the Polish and anyone further east kept doing like the Maharil (that’s my assumption).
There’s no reason to theorize the reason for the minhag. It has a source, that’s all it needs.
As for the OP, if you are in the habit of wearing a tallis, you probably should not stop regardless of your father’s customs.May 9, 2016 10:26 am at 10:26 am #1152151Geordie613Participant
In my part of Yekke-land, we wear a Tallis from 5 years old.May 9, 2016 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1152152Daya ZoogerMember
There is a dispensation in halacha, (restrictions do apply, for rules and regulations please consult with an Halachic authority…) called ‘kavod habriyos’. I.e. when the honor or pride of a person will be compromised as a result of keeping a specific halachic requirement, Chazal dispensated with that particular requirement as to save that persons honor. A prime example is Tallis. It is generally prohibited (bittul aseh) to wear a garment of four corners which does not have Tzitzis attached. However if ones tzitzis tore off when he is in a public area, and taking off his attire will be a great embarrassment for him, the law of ‘kovod habriyos’ does apply, and he need not strip of the four cornered garment until he reaches a private location.
I would venture that, all the more so, where refraining from doing the mitzva will be the source of embarrassment, that this should override your minhag. This, of course, would not replace your minhag, and would only apply where you are in a place where everyone else is doing the mitzva.
(Parenthetically, I might add that a ‘scarf tallis’ or ‘neck tallis’ is not an issue at all’ because these are not considered ‘wearing’ in halacha.)
Having said that, I would like to suggest that a minhag of a conservative kehilla does not have the halachic binding of a minhag. A minhag is considered sacred in halacha for the reason that, whoever instituted the minhag, understood all of the talmudic background sources, and after careful deliberation the concencus was to act in that manner. The conservative ‘minhagim’ were enacted without that careful and honest deliberation, and therefore must give right of way to normative halacha.
Another disclaimer: Let not this be a harbinger of other modifications you would make in your observance in order to conform with your new kehilla. The conservative are not doing a great job of bearing the torch of Torah, as has been passed on, unchanging, for 3,328 years (minus four weeks and four days).May 10, 2016 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1152153nfgo3Member
To the opening poster: You have not told us you are male. Are you part of WOW?May 10, 2016 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1152154☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
He mentioned bar mitzvah, not bas mitzvah.May 11, 2016 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1152155☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
the phone number of the Lakewood Bais Horaah (732-905-9992)
When I tried to post their number in another thread, it was rejected.
(I think my new emoticon can be read in either direction…)May 12, 2016 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1152156tiawdParticipant
Anyone can speculate on the reason for the minhag not to wear a tallis before marriage. However, I believe the Maharil mentions the difference of minhagim between b’nei Reinus (the Rhineland)for unmarried men to wear a tallis and of b’nei Ostreich (I’m not sure this is identical to modern-day Austria, but literally Ostreich means the “Eastern Country”) not to wear one until marriage. Apparently, the German Jews follow the minhag of b’nei Reinus and the Eastern Europeans go like the b’nei Ostreich.May 12, 2016 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #1152157–Participant
I would like to suggest that a minhag of a conservative kehilla does not have the halachic binding of a minhag. A minhag is considered sacred in halacha for the reason that, whoever instituted the minhag, understood all of the talmudic background sources, and after careful deliberation the concencus was to act in that manner.
This practice predates the conservative or even the reform movement.May 13, 2016 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1152158147Participant
As of tonite, being Toch Sheloshim Yom of Shovu’os, I have to bring to your attention Okiale in no uncertain terms, that when you IY’H shall be staying up Shovu’os nite, and praying @Daybreak come Shovu’os morning, there is a tremendous unresolved sofek laHalocho if you can make a Benediction on your Tallis Kotton, which has been on you all Shovu’os nite. … By wearing a Talis Godol, you evade & avoid this entire issue, and can peacefully bless over it, without any compunctions whatsoever. … As an aside, this even helps you get 1 closer to 100 Benedictions per day, come 1st day Shovu’os.May 13, 2016 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1152159dovrosenbaumParticipant
You should ask a rav.
I have seen that in cases where someone was brought up Conservative or Reform, where they wear a tallis from Bar Mitzvah age, and then becomes frum, rabbis would almost always pasken that they continue wearing a tallis. Otherwise it makes zero sense that they become frum and stop keeping a mitzvah.May 20, 2016 12:47 am at 12:47 am #1152160☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
…staying up Shovu’os nite, and praying @Daybreak come Shovu’os morning, there is a tremendous unresolved sofek laHalocho if you can make a Benediction on your Tallis Kotton, which has been on you all Shovu’os nite. … By wearing a Talis Godol, you evade & avoid this entire issue, and can peacefully bless over it, without any compunctions whatsoever…
He could also take it off before morning or put on a different pair.
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