October 23, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #600091
Every time a serious topic is debated, someone always ends up offended that people disagree with his/her views.
So the question is: should the CR be closed to intellectual debate, and only contain recipes and jokes threads, or should its intellectual side be allowed to continue and let the chips fall where they may?October 23, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #819801Dr. SeussMember
It seems the intellectual threads get a good number of deleted posts because someone or another is offended (as you said.)October 23, 2011 5:23 am at 5:23 am #819802am yisrael chaiParticipant
We should utilize proper respectful debating skills:
challenge the belief but not the believer…
There should be no personal belittling.October 23, 2011 5:25 am at 5:25 am #819803ZeesKiteParticipant
This intellectual topic is way beyond my comprehension. So let me state my opinion..October 23, 2011 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #819804OneOfManyParticipant
ZeesKite: You nailed it.October 23, 2011 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #819805mos yumosMember
“We should utilize proper respectful debating skills:
challenge the belief but not the believer…”
There is a mitzvah to stand up and defend aggressively the kavod of gedolim; to belittle apikursos; to shame ovdei avodah zara. Unfortunately, that mitzvah is often applicable here in the CR.October 23, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #819806Bar ShattyaMember
I wholly dispute the premise of the OP. There are no intellectual discussions on the cr. everything is either a joke or a setup for me to make a joke out of it.October 23, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #819807yitayningwutParticipant
DoltOctober 23, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #819808
What must be remembered is that the CR, by definition of being an internet forum, will skew slightly MO, as many yeshivish people do not have Internet an spend their days in front of seforim or classrooms instead of a computer. The people who post are those with free time on their hands, or those who work with a computer available for using during downtime. Even if I delude myself into thinking that I’m smarter than 90% of the people in BMG, that would still leave over 600 who I’m forced to admit can wipe the floor with me easily. They’re not posting here. They’re too busy learning or being mechanech others. So any debates here are limited by the fact that the best and brightest minds are automatically excluded from the debates.October 23, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #819809shlishiMember
Well said, Jothar. I would say the skew to the left even in the CR (and certainly elsewhere online) is a lot more than just slight.October 23, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #819810tahiniMember
oh please do allow intellectual debate in the CR!
It is a pleasure to read so many opinions from well informed Jews, the sources, arguments and texts used to represent differing ideas are informative and stimulating. Part of being Jewish is debate and opinion, without it we lose our intellectual heritage and genetic makeup. As a mother of girls and boys attending Sem and Yeshiva, the ability of my kids to debate and question is something of crucial importance to their spiritual growth.October 23, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #819811
I dont think the skew is left or right. Rather, those smart enough, know to stay away from anonymous online forums.October 23, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #819812chocandpatienceMember
I think it reflects a worldwide malady – the inability to accept another’s viewpoint. Here, you are exposed to a far wider set of people than you would meet in a typical Sunday stroll around the lake, hence more disagreement.
Personally, I cannot understand the strange desire to convince someone to believe as I do. I would much rather be told that my ‘argument has validity’, than ‘you’re right, you’re right, I’m changing orientation NOW’October 23, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #819813mos yumosMember
“It is a pleasure to read so many opinions from well informed Jews, the sources, arguments and texts used to represent differing ideas are informative and stimulating.”
I never knew apikorsus is considered to be well-informed. Furthermore, opinions that don’t reflect halacha are quite problematic and have no place in judaism. Additionally, that one can find such heretical ideas stimulating seems extremely dangerous.
“Part of being Jewish is debate and opinion, without it we lose our intellectual heritage and genetic makeup.”
Debate and opinion bound by the dictums and axioms of halacha, yes. Openly agnostic toward gedolim and shulchan aruch, not so much. In fact, it is probably more accutrate to say that such “debates” serve only to undermine authentic judaism and weaken the mesorah.
“As a mother of girls and boys attending Sem and Yeshiva, the ability of my kids to debate and question is something of crucial importance to their spiritual growth.”
True, but not in an unregulated vaccuum.October 24, 2011 2:29 am at 2:29 am #819814Bar ShattyaMember
Rather, those smart enough, know to stay away from anonymous online forums.
The Heir to the Shattya Dynasty says Yes it seems you are agreeing with jothar that the cr skews MOOctober 24, 2011 2:42 am at 2:42 am #819815
I’m not quite sure what the heir to the ming dynasty is trying to say. Probably because I am from the portion of the population who are not smart enough to know to avoid anonymous forums.October 24, 2011 2:56 am at 2:56 am #819816
bar shattya, if you and poppa bar abba are brothers, wouldn’t that also make him a bar shatya? Or you a bar abba?October 24, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #819817yitayningwutParticipant
His abba is a shatyaOctober 24, 2011 7:12 am at 7:12 am #819818tahiniMember
For Jews to grow and think they must be taught the importance of debate and question, as well as the need to listen with respect. that does not mean to accept or play with ideas that directly contravene Torah teachings, but to recognise the role of debate in our learning and history. As Jews who have been scatterd around the world for so long different interpretations and practices exist to this very day. Just look at the discussion now for the CR current thread up on lead and ayin hora. On the subject of minhagim one constantly finds offerings and sources which lie more in historical legacy than Torah based fact. Certain customs especially around ayin hora often need to be firmly questioned with the Shulchan Aruch in mind. I think it is very dangerous not to teach kids to question, that is how superstitious traditions from outside of our Torah values enter our world.October 24, 2011 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #819819
I mentioned this thread to someone I believe can be called an intellectual. He commented. Intellectuals don’t debate, they discuss. Intellectual debate, he feels is an oxymoron (with emphasis on moron).October 24, 2011 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #819820ToiParticipant
im not discussing. im winning. duh.October 24, 2011 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #819821soliekMember
ok. heres the deal. there are a few simple rules to debate.
1) you debate to exchange ideas. the win/lose factor is incidental. a debate is not an argument. it is simply the exchange of opposing ideas in a respectful manner.
2) you don’t debate to change another person. if you’re assuming that winning a debate will result in the other party immediately changing their mind on their views…you’ve already lost.
3) debate is impersonal. you must remain dispassionate and keep your distance while debating. never let the topic of the debate or the content get personal. doesnt matter what the topic is. if you let a debate get personal it becomes an argument not a debate and you lose your focus. taking a debate personally is an automatic loss.
4) you are not talking AT each other you are talking TO each other. therefore, you need to grant certain terms before teh debate begins so that you are both on the same page. for example (and this by the way is the BEST example) if you have an atheist and an orthodox jew on the point of debating bechira…the atheist must grant, for the sake of debate, that god exists. otherwise you wind up somewhere halfway through the debate with something along the lines of “oh well your point is invalid because god doesnt exist” which terminates the debate right there because that is a pointless debate. if you are unwilling to grant certain terms to set the stage of the debate…then dont debate.
5) you need to understand your opponents position. i debate many people about many things and one thing that always serves my well is my ability to fully understand their position before i open my mouth. this is important because A) you need to understand what you are answering before you answer otherwise it is an argument not a debate and B) you need to be able to anticipate any possible argument that your opponent uses. if you refuse to even understand your opponent’s position then dont bother debating. youve already lost.
so how does this apply here? well its problematic. for example goyish music (please dont turn this thread into a specific debate im just usoing this as an example) what invariably happens is something along the lines of
A: goyish music should be allowed…i see no problems with it whos with me!
B: but there is so much znus and disgusting language and stuff in those songs
A: but this song over here is perfectly clean. no romance no sex no violence no swearing…whats teh problem
and right there is where the thread should end becuase if you bring an isolated sample from a larger sample to the table…then teh debate becomes about nitpicking and that’s never acceptable. what ends up happening is a 10 page argument where A and B essentially come to the conclusion that they basically agree…and everyone;s time was wasted. meanwhile youve had name calling…lashon hara…etc.
anyway…thats how its done. take it or leave it…but thats why we have no intellectual debate here.October 24, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #8198222scentsParticipant
What is? You have something to prove?
Keep your beliefs to yourself, come here for some light chatting/posting!October 24, 2011 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #819823
Apushatayid, Torah lishma, as defined by R. Yisroel Salanter, means debating and then being modeh at the end to whichever side is right. So he argues on your intellectual.October 24, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #819824BTGuyParticipant
Intellectual debates are chiefly responsible for global warming. They accomplish little else.October 24, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #819825
NOTHING in the CR accomplishes anything. It’s all a waste. So why is some waste better than other waste?
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