Should More Mamzerim Be Created?

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  • #616876

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We all know, of course, that the very first mitzvah mentioned in the Torah is the commandment to be fruitful and multiply. We also know that a person who is Mamzer may not marry into the kahal. However, it is 100% permitted for them to marry another mamzer(ess) or a convert. However, children from such unions inherit the status of mamzer(ess).

    The question is, should a mamzer(ess) marry and have children. It is commonly expressed how terrible it is to bring mamzerim into the world. Certainly cannot say it is against halacha for a mamzer to marry someone they are permitted to and have children. However, I’m wondering if the following questions can be asked:

    1. If a mamzer wants to prevent an increase in the number of mamzerim in the world, can he willingly not marry and have children?

    2. Should we discourage known mamzerim who do want to marry from doing so, again with the goal of not increasing the number of mamzerim in the world?

    3. If he wants to decrease the number of mamzerim in the world, can he consider suicide?

    4. If the answers to any of the above questions is no, how do we reconcile this with the idea that HKBH clearly does not want mamzerim? It seems he’s stuck either way — either he violates God’s will by not getting married and having kids or he violates it by doing so.

    The Wolf

    #1117980

    Where are you coming from? does this have anything with the problematic gitin that were issued?

    #1117981

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    He can marry a mamzeres and have 1 kid so two turn into one

    #1117982

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Where are you coming from? does this have anything with the problematic gitin that were issued?

    No. Just curiosity. To the best of my knowledge, there are no mamzeirim involved there.

    He can marry a mamzeres and have 1 kid so two turn into one

    No. Unless the parents die right away, it’s two turning into three. And it still doesn’t answer the question (inasmuch as the mitzvah of p’ru u’r’vu is at least two [and maybe three]).

    The Wolf

    #1117983

    Logician
    Participant

    Safek of Pri Megadim 240, discussed in Minchas Chinuch (1).

    Why would you think this is not a clear-cut halachic question?

    And if for whatever reason you assumed he IS obligated in the mitzvah, why do you think he can get out of it? cf Chizkiyahu

    #1117984

    Avi K
    Participant

    He can go to a country that allows slavery and buy a shifcha Kenanit. After they have a boy and a girl he can free all of them and marry her as she will be a gioret. She should be allowed to prevent pregnancy as she is not obligated.

    #1117985

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Avi,

    That rule only applies to someone sold as a slave and that’s only a daas yachid that the kids are kosher

    #1117986

    Joseph
    Participant

    CA, I believe Avi’s idea is ruled halacha l’maaisa by the S”A as correct, regarding a mamzer having non-mamzer children with a shifcha.

    #1117987

    Avi K
    Participant

    Coffe Addict, on the contrary, it is halacha peskua that the children are avadim and once they are freed they become regular gerim (Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 4,20).

    #1117988

    yytz
    Participant

    Good question. I’m sure the poskim have addressed whether mamzerim should marry. They’re technically allowed to marry gerim or other mamzerim, but I’ve definitely heard of of people telling mamzerim they will never get married.

    Of course suicide is out of the question.

    Keep in mind that some sources counsel mamzerim or doubtful mamzerim to conceal their identity and marry a kosher Jew anyway (perhaps relying on the halacha that an unknown mamzer is kosher).

    Also keep in mind that batei din nowadays will never in practice declare someone a mamzer, even if there is overwhelming evidence that they are. Some apikores in Israel tried her best to get her child declared a mamzer, solely to create a chilul Hashem, but the batei din refused.

    #1117989

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    The question is, should a mamzer(ess) marry and have children. It is commonly expressed how terrible it is to bring mamzerim into the world.

    I think the terribleness of bringing about mamzerim you are referring to is primarily directed towards the initial circumstance. After the fact, if “containing the damage” was Hashem’s top priority, why would He permit mamzerim to marry at all?

    In other words, what Hashem hates is the behavior that causes a mamzer in the first place, as opposed to the mamzer himself.

    1. If a mamzer wants to prevent an increase in the number of mamzerim in the world, can he willingly not marry and have children?

    For mamzerim to find permitted and suitable potential spouses would be miraculous; why should they deny themselves happiness due to sins that were not their fault?

    2. Should we discourage known mamzerim who do want to marry from doing so, again with the goal of not increasing the number of mamzerim in the world?

    I think the focus would be better placed on preventing the sins from which mamzerim originate.

    3. If he wants to decrease the number of mamzerim in the world, can he consider suicide?

    Umm, what? Where in the Torah is it ever suggested that murdering a mamzer is permitted?

    If the answers to any of the above questions is no, how do we reconcile this with the idea that HKBH clearly does not want mamzerim?

    I think your focus on this issue is a bit off. What HKBH does not want to happen is the circumstances that produce a mamzer ab origine, e.g., adultery, not the mamzer per se.

    #1117990

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think the focus would be better placed on preventing the sins from which mamzerim originate.

    There are 2 seperate issues, Preventing a sin from happening and what to do AFTER sin happens and there is nothing you can do about it, and how to react to the aftermath of the sin

    #1117991

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    @ Joe & Avi,

    That’s cool, however still isn’t the mamzer supposed to be sold as a slave not just buy one because marrying her sets her free?

    #1117992

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Keep in mind that some sources counsel mamzerim or doubtful mamzerim to conceal their identity and marry a kosher Jew anyway

    How could someone possibly legitimately counsel a vaday mamzer to marry a kosher Jew?

    #1117993

    Joseph
    Participant

    yytz: The halacha is that at a mamzer’s bris it is publicly announced that the child is a mamzer.

    ca: Can you repeat that in English?

    #1117994

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    There are 2 seperate issues, Preventing a sin from happening and what to do AFTER sin happens and there is nothing you can do about it, and how to react to the aftermath of the sin

    So I’ll repeat what I wrote in response to WolfishMusings: After the fact, if “containing the damage” was Hashem’s top priority, why would He permit mamzerim to marry at all?

    #1117995

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    yytz: The halacha is that at a mamzer’s bris it is publicly announced that the child is a mamzer.

    Communties dont talk to each other and if one community makes such a proclimation it very well would not be heard in another

    #1117996

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ok I’ll try to slow it down for Joe,

    Avi said buy a shifchah kanaanit in a country that allows slavery

    I’m saying once one marries her without becoming a slave himself (through being an eved ivri) she becomes free and the kids are Jewish mamzerim

    #1117997

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    why would He permit mamzerim to marry at all?

    As a rachamin for the mamzer, after all it wasnt his sin, but his parents

    #1117998

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    My question is, how are we “sure” that person A is a Mamzer? Do we know for sure who/what his parents did? Can we make someone a mamzer based on assumptions?

    #1117999

    Joseph
    Participant

    GM: Suppose the husband was away for a year.

    #1118000

    Joseph
    Participant

    CA: He can buy a shifcha and they can have children without him freeing her from being a shifcha. The children, who will not be mamzeirim, can be freed by their father and become geirim.

    Check the S”A Avi cited.

    #1118001

    Avi K
    Participant

    CA, I do not say anything. Rav Yosef Karo says it based on Rabbi Tarfon (Kiddushin 69a). See also Bet Shmuel and Chlekat Mechokek thatt his was allowed for the sake of the child – which means that here is no need for him to become an eved Ivri. Moreover, the Mechaber does not include any halchot that are not in force in our time and until Yovel is re-established there cannot be an eved Ivri (Rambam, Hilchot Avadim 1:10).You say? Do you have broad enough shoulders to disagree with the above? If not, cite someone who does.

    In any case, poskim go to great lengths to clear someone from mamzerut. I heard that once Rav Moshe discovered that a BT’s mother was under psychiatric care when she married her first husband (who did not give her a get). He went to the psychiatrist personally and told him that he had only lived so long in order to clear the girl (the psychiatrist was by then quite elderly). The info allowed Rav Moshe to rule that the mother was halachically a shottah at the time of her first marriage. Similarly, it is well-known that Rav Moshe was meikal regarding women who had been married in non-Orthodox ceremonies. Possel eidim also occur. Once someone told me that before he became observant he was a witness at his sister’s wedding.

    #1118002

    Sam2
    Participant

    ca: That is not true. He can “marry” her without freeing her.

    Joseph: 13 months. The Noda Bihudah quotes that because one woman in a million can have a 12-month pregnancy, maybe we can assume that a husband who has been away for 12 months is still the father.

    #1118003

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Moshe was known to be Mekail, Rav Elyashiv was known not to hold this way

    #1118004

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Rav Moshe was known to be Mekail, Rav Elyashiv was known not to hold this way “

    Not true. Not true.

    On both counts. You have no clue what you are talking about.

    #1118005

    pcoz
    Member

    Because Dr Frankenstein refused to create a wife for Frankenstein’s monster, the monster then killed his wife. This is a clear middah keneged middah for not allowing the monster to fulfill the mitzva of lo tohu bera’ah lesheves yetzara even in a case where there is no pru u’revu.

    #1118006

    yytz
    Participant

    DY: See Rema on Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 2:5). This and other sources seem to say that if it is not already public knowledge and can be kept a secret then the person can marry (and stay married to) a kosher Jew.

    Joseph: that’s not really done in practice.

    #1118007

    charliehall
    Participant

    I have never seen anything that would exempt a mamzer from pru urvu.

    #1118008

    Logician
    Participant

    Charlie – see my earlier post – a very real safek in the Poskim.

    #1118009

    Joseph
    Participant

    yytz: The citation you made does not state or imply what you attribute to it.

    #1118010

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yytz: that’s not what it says.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=eh_x7494

    #1118011

    Joseph
    Participant

    yytz: Shulchan Aruch YD 265:4 – “We publicize at the time of the Bris Milah that the baby is a mamzer.” The Shach there says that mamzerim are not given a Bris Mila inside the shul like kosher children are, but outside the shul. The Gra quotes the source for publicizing that the baby is a mamzer by the Bris is a Gemora in Yevomes 78b. The Gemorah there says that a Rov publicized the fact that a somebody was a mamzer. The person came to the Rov to complain and the Rov said that if I had not publicized this, you would have died.

    Rema YD 265:4 – “???????? ???? ????? ???? ????”

    #1118012

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s clear from Chazal that the existence of mamzerim is itself harmful to klal yisroel. There are even dei’os that you do not say the mi sheberach at the bris of a mamzer “likayem es hayeled hazeh” since we don’t want him to survive, we don’t want the perpetuation of mamzerus amongst klal yisroel. The Gemara in Yevamos even says that Hashem will see to it that unknown mamzerim die out so they will not propegate mamzerus amongst us unknowingly.

    #1118013

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph , who are “we”? Apparently Rav Ammi (Yevamot 78b) did want them to survive. The solution for men is as I posted. A woman is not obligated in peria v’revia so probably she would be allowed to marry a mamzer or ger who cannot have children or already did the mitzva and take preventive measures. Adoption might also be an option (see Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, Chayei Olam Ch. 31 in the name of the Chafetz Chaim, Shem Olam Ch. 15).

    #1118014

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why would you think this is not a clear-cut halachic question?

    And if for whatever reason you assumed he IS obligated in the mitzvah, why do you think he can get out of it? cf Chizkiyahu

    I don’t think Chizkiyahu is relevant here. While he may have forseen that he would have a wicked child, it was in no way certain that it must be that way (or else the idea of free will goes out the window). Here, however, it is certain that the children will be mamzeirim. Free will has nothing to do with it.

    The Wolf

    #1118015

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Of course suicide is out of the question.

    Why is it “of course?*” If it will reduce the number of mamzeirim in the world (and is voluntary on his part), why is it so “of course?”

    The Wolf

    *(Just to be clear, I’m not saying that it is okay either… I would just like to know why it’s being dismissed so out of hand.)

    #1118016

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I think the terribleness of bringing about mamzerim you are referring to is primarily directed towards the initial circumstance. After the fact, if “containing the damage” was Hashem’s top priority, why would He permit mamzerim to marry at all?

    In other words, what Hashem hates is the behavior that causes a mamzer in the first place, as opposed to the mamzer himself.

    Well, I think we can all agree that the *primary* place to stop mamzeirim is in the original sin that resulted in the condition in the first place.

    For mamzerim to find permitted and suitable potential spouses would be miraculous; why should they deny themselves happiness due to sins that were not their fault?

    I’m not saying that we should deny it to them. My question is, if he wants to deny it to himself, for whatever reason, is it okay for him to do so?

    I think the focus would be better placed on preventing the sins from which mamzerim originate.

    Again, I think we all agree that that’s the case. But now we’re dealing with an after-the-fact situation.

    Umm, what? Where in the Torah is it ever suggested that murdering a mamzer is permitted?

    I was not, under any circumstancing, suggesting that it was okay to go around murdering people under any circumstances. My question was about suicide, not murdering others.

    I think your focus on this issue is a bit off. What HKBH does not want to happen is the circumstances that produce a mamzer ab origine, e.g., adultery, not the mamzer per se.

    I agree, to an extent. However, when we hear about the terribleness of being “marbeh mamzeirim” in the world, we don’t hear it with the caveat of “we only mean the original circumstances, but you mamzeirim who already exist, we don’t mean you…”

    The Wolf

    #1118017

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It’s clear from Chazal that the existence of mamzerim is itself harmful to klal yisroel. There are even dei’os that you do not say the mi sheberach at the bris of a mamzer “likayem es hayeled hazeh” since we don’t want him to survive, we don’t want the perpetuation of mamzerus amongst klal yisroel.

    So, is it proper for a mamzer to wish to die?

    The Wolf

    #1118018

    cherrybim
    Participant

    What’s all the fuss? I know many mamzeirim. They marry into good families, have children and are even given shishi on Shabbos.

    #1118019

    Joseph
    Participant

    Suicide is assur. Just as someone killing someone else is assur, someone killing himself is assur. I do not even understand how you can question the possibility of suicide. It is a clear-cut issur.

    #1118020

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Suicide is assur. Just as someone killing someone else is assur, someone killing himself is assur. I do not even understand how you can question the possibility of suicide. It is a clear-cut issur.

    No, it’s not. R. Yaakov Emden, for example, maintains that one can commit suicide as a kapparah. You may say “we don’t hold like that…” but it’s clearly not as clear-cut as you think it is.

    The Wolf

    #1118021

    YW Moderator-127
    Moderator

    Not going anywhere good.

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