July 24, 2011 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #598176zahavasdadParticipant
Should one mourn the death of a jew no matter who it is?
A well known jewish singer passed away and while I would not call her a rasha she had some very well known demons
Should one mourn such a persons death?July 24, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #789079bombmaniacParticipant
you dont mourn every jewish death…veharaya…suicides. so idk about your singer who you wanna mourn…butliekyeaJuly 24, 2011 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #789080
I posted “Baruch Dayan HaEmet” on my facebook page, along with a link to a news report of her death. She had been terribly troubled by drug addiction. It is very sad.July 24, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #789081ChanieEParticipant
I think it’s appropriate to mourn the loss – the waste of a life. She wasn’t evil – she was very troubled, and I hope she is finally at peace.July 24, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #789082ZeesKiteParticipant
I think it says somewhere that every Jew has some merit (????? ???? ??????), and therefore anyone present at a Jew’s passing must mourn. Correct me if I’m wrong.July 24, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #789083am yisrael chaiParticipant
Hashem didn’t want us to sing a whole Hallel on Pesach because the Egyptians died, who according to many were reshaim. So there is some mourning by Hashem even over them.
Hashem had given her talents but addictions won over, a lesson for us all. How many of us have addictions to the computer, food, shopping, etc. so that we reduce our abilities for our G-d given talents to shine through?July 24, 2011 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #789084mommamia22Participant
I know of whom you are speaking. While I would not mourn her death as another, I would mourn her not having found her way back to Yiddishkeit. I would use the feelings of loss and sadness as a way to strengthen yourself and your own commitment, which hopefully would be a mailitz yosher for her in shamayim.July 24, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #789085popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Hashem didn’t want us to sing a whole Hallel on Pesach because the Egyptians died, who according to many were reshaim.
Doesn’t that medrash say that Hashem didn’t want the malachim to say shira, and only wanted us to say shira?
And don’t we say full hallel on pesach?July 24, 2011 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #789086menachem__Participant
She killed fewer people than Martin Grossman..July 24, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #789087always hereParticipant
“I posted “Baruch Dayan HaEmet” on my facebook page, along with a link to a news report of her death. She had been terribly troubled by drug addiction. It is very sad.”
so did I, last night. (actually “BD’E”).. & also posted a ‘Back to Black’ clip. it was the first thing I saw online when I logged on after Shabbos.July 24, 2011 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #789088
We mourn her as we mourn any other Jewish neshomo who was lost to anything Jewish. She knew no better; she ended up making her career in a field that is the truest definition of oilam hasheker and she succumbed.
It is the same situation with the girl who disappeared in the Midwest and is suspected to have used cocaine. She knew no better.
The only Yidden we don’t mourn when they peyger are true reshoim, whether self-hating like George Soros, frei like Madoff who davka ate pork, or “frum” (farkakte reshoim uhn mitzvos) like D-ek, Shereshevsky, or Levi Aron.July 24, 2011 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #789089bombmaniacParticipant
oh youre talking about amy weinhouse…no i wouldnt waste time mourning that lowlifeJuly 24, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #789090
” it was the first thing I saw online when I logged on after Shabbos.”
” i wouldnt waste time mourning that lowlife”
She had a lowlife lifestyle because of drugs. None of us are immune.
‘ true reshoim, whether self-hating like George Soros, frei like Madoff who davka ate pork, or “frum” (farkakte reshoim uhn mitzvos) like D-ek, Shereshevsky, or Levi Aron.’
Soros would be considered evil even if he weren’t a self-hating Jew. He made billions betting on the destruction of the British economy. In effect, he capitalized on the misery of others. And he shows no remorse. He is a textbook example of the evils of capitalism when carried to extreme. Fortunately, most capitalists do not share his lack of morality.July 24, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #789091
He is a speculator, not a capitalist. A capitalist adds value, even if he is a passive investor like Warren Buffett seems to be. Speculators and black marketeers exist in every economic system, and in fact a repressive, overregulated system is what generates them. The rishus of Soros is that unlike most people who play games like that (D-ek etc), he has the talent and training to do something constructive.
The question I have always had is who is Soros acting for. My suspicion lies in the Arabian Peninsula, as they would have a great deal of interest in wrecking economies for the glory of their evil religion.
(Marc Rich and Pincus Green were crooked speculators as well, but they were actually acting as agents for either the US, EY or both, which is why they were pardoned. They also are probably among those who ensured that Khomeini YMS allowed a free flow of Jewish emigration and assets from Iran).July 24, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #789092
600, I agree that Soros adds no value. The problem is how to defend the system against people like him. Many capitalists and their supporters, including the current Republicans in the US Congress, are adamant against setting up checks and balances in the financial system to avoid abuses of the market.
Buffet is as good as Soros is bad. Buffet invests in well-run companies and keeps their management intact, protecting them from the likes of Soros and also from the likes of less evil speculators who just want a quick buck.
The surprising thing is that given Buffet’s record as the most successful investor in history, that there are far more individuals who adopt the fast buck strategy than the kind of strategy that Buffet employs.July 24, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #789093
The problem is how to defend the system against people like him.
The question is who is hampering an investigation into his activities. D-ek is in the dock, Shereshevsky is in the can, Madoff will never see the light of day, Barry Minkow is back in trouble, the Galleon crowd have been successfully prosecuted, Milken got the book thrown at him for practically nothing – and this guy gets away with financial murder that is on the magnitude of ten Madoffs while sponsoring none other than Barack Hussein Obama.
Putin is no tzaddik, but he knew how to handle his Soros-backed plague. He threw Mr “Open Society” Khodorkovsky in jail and stripped him of every last cent. Our Soros-backed plague is now president, and I suspect he will be in again in 2012 thanks to media manipulation and Republican inertia.
All the checks and balances, of which the US has too many as it is, only keep the good from being tempted. Soros is a sociopath with powerful friends, mostly on the left which he supports but also in the oil fields of Saudi Arabia (I don’t think Iran is sophisticated enough to deploy a Soros).July 24, 2011 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #789094
In classic yw coffee room fashion, a halachic issue is debated without citing any halachic sources. Why don’t you all check out shulchan aruch y’d 345 seif 5 and then decide whether we should mourn over the death all jews.July 24, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #789095MiddlePathParticipant
Whether or not we should halachicly mourn her death, it really doesn’t take away the fact that a Jewish person died at a young age, and I am saddened at her death. She was a talented woman who made mistakes that ended up costing her life. We can learn a lot from her life.July 24, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #789096
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man’s death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
John DonneJuly 24, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #789097
She leaves behind a brother and two parents. May they find solace among the mourners of Zion.July 24, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #789098
middlepath- “Whether or not we should halachicly mourn her death, it really doesn’t take away the fact that a Jewish person died at a young age, and I am saddened at her death. “
In other words, you don’t care what the halacha is, you’re going to feel how you want to feel. If you want to say that the s’a is not applicable here (she was a tinok shenishba or something similar) that’s one thing. But do you think it’s appropriate to just discard a halacha because you want to feel sad?July 24, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #789099
I’m having trouble with people making rules about whom to mourn.
We are all born good, and life has a way of throwing obstacles and misfortunes in our way that sometime effect the way we think.
Mental illness, physical illness, misfortune, bad decisions, malnutrition, brain injuries, traumatic experiences, evil intent, unintended consequences all go to shape the way we are thinking by the end of our lives.
Last night, I spent some time with family friends. The wife of this couple has had severe dementia for several years, and she rages uninhibitedly and cruelly about most of her close friends and relatives. She would rage when she was younger, but I believe her inhibitions and filters were intact then.
When she passes on, should I judge whether I mourn her on her current personality and actions, or should I remember that she was once a kinder person who helped out many before her mind was lost?
When someone seems at first to have no merit, I try to remember that they were once a baby whom someone bounced on their knee, someone who had hoped for better. They may have been an enthusiastic son, daughter, brother, sister, husband, wife, father, mother, uncle, aunt. They belonged to people who hoped for better lot than they received in life.
There were many people who were mentally bent in the Concentration Camps, and did things that good people ordinarily would not do. Should we judge them on their acts, or should we give them some leeway because of the horrendous things that were done to warp their thinking?
I don’t think whom to mourn is for us to judge. We can leave that for the True Judge, and presume that all our brothers and sisters are worthy of being mourned.July 24, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #789100wanderingchanaParticipant
Perhaps her death will wake up even one Jewish fan of hers to do tshuva?…July 24, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #789101MiddlePathParticipant
newhere, what?! Feeling sad for someone’s death is discarding halacha? There may be halachos of mourning in terms of sitting shiva or doing certain actions, but feeling sad is an emotion that is not bound by halacha. You can’t DECIDE to feel sad about something, just because it’s the halacha. Either you are sad, or you aren’t. Please don’t assume I don’t care about halacha simply because I have human emotions. That’s ridiculous.July 24, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #789102
Have you bothered to ask a rav about this issue?July 24, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #789103
This kind of Barney the Dinosaur love everyone nonsense is why we have crime. There is nothing to mourn when it comes to a violent criminal, or a mass thief such as a Ponzi scammer, or other two-legged parasites and wild beasts.
The example of someone who became ill is totally a non-sequitur. On the other hand, being born ill is no excuse, except to those who foolishly opened the (real) Creedmoors of this world and released subway pushers and the like into the streets.
We are talking about not mourning those whose net contributions to society are extremely negative. The singer is far from being one of these.
However, you can make a bet that when Levi Aron, Solomon D-ek, Madoff, and a whole host of others peyger, I will play a nigun by a baal toeva whose name was the same as a planet and an element. It is called “Noch An Anderer Peygert”…or in simple English “Another One Bites the Dust!”July 24, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #789104
middlepath- I’m sorry this offends you, but the shulchan aruch is clearly dictating a behavior. He gives situation where we “eat drink and be happy” over someone’s death. Again, I am not saying we should be happy over this singer’s death, I am just saying there are certain times where we don’t mourn over a jew’s death.
charliehall- I have not asked my rav about this particular issue because I did not hear of Amy Weinhouse until last night, so her death really does not concern me. However, I have spoked with him about it in the past, not in a halcah limaseh situtaion, just in learning, and he was clearly of the opinion that we don’t just throw out a halacha in s’a because it goes against our Western sensitivities. He also doesn’t buy the general notion that everyone today is a tinok shenishba. He’s just my rav and by no means I am saying he has the final say on all matters, I am just trying to point out that too often in the cr we use our opinions to shape the torah, instead of vice versa. Have you asked a rav about this s’a, I am curious what others have to say.July 24, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #789105
I am just saying there are certain times where we don’t mourn over a jew’s death.
Yes, and we daven for this to happen fast three times a day in birkas haminim. I look forward to mishte vesimcha the moment Soros, D-ek, Madoff, Mondrowitz, Aron and a couple of others pollute gehennom rather than earth with their presence.July 24, 2011 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #789106oomisParticipant
It is proper to mourn the actions that lead to an untimely death of a Yid. What a waste.July 24, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #789107haifagirlParticipant
And don’t we say full hallel on pesach?
Only on the first day. (The first two days for those who live out-of-town.)July 25, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #789108always runs with scissors fastParticipant
I learned this from “daily hilchos bein Adom L’chavero”: Under : Love your Fellow as Yourself:
We are obligated to love and do chessed for all
people of unsound mind and even people who are no
longer alive. Acts of kindness to the deceased (such
as burying and eulogizing them) are of particular value, because we perform them without any expectation of reward.
There is no mitzvah to love akum (although in some cases, for the
On the other hand, the Torah demands that we be caring even toward
someone who is to be executed by the Sanhedrin, in which caseJuly 25, 2011 12:09 am at 12:09 am #789109always runs with scissors fastParticipant
600 Kilo Did Barney the dinosaur die too? Did I miss something?July 25, 2011 12:57 am at 12:57 am #789110zahavasdadParticipant
I believe Soros was a survivor.
I am not 100% sure how he got his fortune, but if he did get it betting against the british economy, this is not illegal or unethical. Shorting stocks is many times healthy for a capitialist economy. However many will not engage in this form of trading. Sort of like many will not buy ciggarette stocks or Beer Stocks.July 25, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #789111kapustaParticipant
Only on the first day. (The first two days for those who live out-of-town.)
Thats interesting. Its the first time I’ve ever heard NY called out of town.July 25, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #789112
“He also doesn’t buy the general notion that everyone today is a tinok shenishba.”
That is reasonable. But the issue with Amy Winehouse was not tinok shenishba but that she had a very serious disease: drug addiction. Her repeated outbreaks of anti-social behavior are quite characteristic of addiction, as was her defiant refusal to do anything about it.
I recently had to attend the funeral of a Jewish drug addict who had died young; he had been a teacher and many former students came. He had a sister who is orthodox and the family sat a full shiva. There was also a suicide in my community a few years ago; the person had only recently spent time in the hospital for depression and there, too, the family sat a full shiva with the approval of the rabbis. Both these were tragic losses of good people. I had just given the man who committed suicide an aliyah the preceding Shabat. Amy Winehouse had tremendous talent and could have used it for good.
I just hope that Amy Winehouse’s death might inspire those who have fallen prey to scourge of drug addition to take action now before they end up like her.
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