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logician- maskim. i thought you meant to let them use it etc.
mp-putting a sixteen yo on the internet basically unsupervised (youre giving the kid a fb account) is like a ten yo in a candy store. the gedoim already said its worse. not me. i disagree about spiritual ups and downs. we should be mishtadel to only have ups, no downs, and deal with downs when they come. they are to be taken more seriously then a bump on the head. i just thought of a rayye- the gemara that says an amorah poked his eyes out, or tried to (dont remember) in order to avoid seeing bad things.
OneOfMany, exactly.
Toi, as I said earlier, I understand your view, and if it works for your children, that’s wonderful. So we may have different parenting styles, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think we have reached a point where we understand where we disagree, and nothing more will change anything. Wishing you much success, and may you receive much joy from your children.
Sometimes I wonder wht is mine,
tolerance, or a rubber spine.
Agreeing to disagree (tolerance) does not mean “to each their own”. I can tolerate your seeing things different, despite vehemently disagreeing on the position.
Logician, I’m not sure what you mean.. but it sounds interesting. So how does “vehemently disagreeing” not mean “to each their own”? Can’t I vehemently disagree with you about something, but still understand that there are, as OneOfMany said, different strokes for different folks?
“different strokes for different folks” means that this is inherently right for me, and that for you. Nothing to debate, depends who you are.
Strongly disagreeing means that from my viewpoint, you are WRONG. According to the sechel G-d gave me, you are wrong. Yet I am tolerant, for I realize that my intelligence is not the end-all way of viewing reality.
MP – I just read the recent part of the YU thread going on – I think you really gotta get this message. Let’s not bring over the debate, but for the people claiming what they claim on that thread against YU, you can’t then say “it’s great for the ones who want to go”. Take a stand (at least in your mind)!
Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining. Well, I happen to think that the two are more closely related than it would appear, since in the second way, the person believes, from his viewpoint, that the other person is wrong.. and it is very possible, that from the viewpoint of the other person, according to the sechel that G-d gave him, the first person is wrong. And now, you have a situation where each one thinks the other is wrong, while in reality, it is entirely possible that they are both correct for their own personal circumstances. Isn’t that possible?
Of course, there may be a situation where a person is CERTAINLY wrong, no matter what the circumstance. But I think with most mature, somewhat knowledgeable adults, their own personal values and circumstances shape their opinions so much, to the point where they cannot possibly believe that another opinion is valid. It takes maturity and open-mindedness to realize that there are usually other valid opinions.
Regarding the YU thing, that IS my stand. And that is usually my stand for just about everything. Different things work for different people, and I don’t believe in pushing one path on everyone. It’s possible that I have this mindset because of the way I grew up, with being in contact with all types of Jews and all types of people, and my mom engraved in me the fact that different things work for different people. If you can understand this, great. If not, I’m sorry.
mp, we know you hate to take on any real opinion in any matter, thats not a chiddush to us. what is a chiddush is that your american morals, your western respect for others, can allow you to be totally ambiguous in regards to a matter that our rabbonim have spoken on. why cant you allow yourself the torahs view on something.
“And now, you have a situation where each one thinks the other is wrong, while in reality, it is entirely possible that they are both correct for their own personal circumstances. Isn’t that possible?”
Yes. But it is also possible that each one of their reasoning applies to each others circumstances just fine, and they simply have different ways of viewing the reality. That’s how Gd made it work, people think differently. So from each perspective, the other is wrong, and to say “for him its fine” is a sign of a weak intellect – as the quote from Mr Nash that I wrote.
Ditto for your second remark. According to what I’m explaining, always taking the view that “Different things work for different people” is equivalent to not really having a view.
Toi, you say I hate to take on opinions on anything. That is false. My OPINION is that usually, there is no single correct answer, and that everyone should do what is best for them. That is an opinion, because clearly, you disagree with it. This is true in Judaism about many, many things. Why do you think there are so many sects of Jews, so many different minhagim, etc.? You think that only one of them is correct, and everyone else is wrong? Clearly, you do. Well, I think that believing that is foolish, immature, and frankly, is an embarrassment to Judaism.
Now, there are many times in the CR when I will specifically not state my opinion on things, and keep quiet, either because the person won’t listen anyway, or because I don’t wish to make someone feel bad. I don’t think this is a sign of weakness. I think it is a sign of maturity. There. That’s another opinion. If you’d like to know of some opinions that I have that I never bring up here, here they are: In my OPINION, the most important thing for a Jew to do is be respectful of others, and especially of those that you may disagree with. Derech eretz is the most important thing. In my opinion, the way you treat people here that you disagree with is so abhorrent, so despicable, that I think your Torah learning is worth absolutely nothing. And that goes to anyone who considers himself a “talmud chacham” yet treats others with disrespect. Just look at what you did: A few posts up, I gave you blessing for success and have joy from your children. And what did you do? Not only did you not thank me, but you ridiculed me. Is THAT what G-d had in mind for someone who considers himself a Jew doing the right thing? I don’t think so. G-d doesn’t want you to be rude to people. The world hates Jews because of people like you, who consider themselves better than everyone else, are rude to people not like themselves, and think that their way is the ONLY way.
Here’s some other opinions I have: The way some Jews are so judgmental is sickening. I think that a major part of the current “ultra-frum” value system is terrible. Things are priorities that shouldn’t be, such as wearing black and white, blindly following Rabbonim without being able to think for yourself, learning all day, doing anything possible to not have any interaction with the opposite sex. I can go on and on. Those things should not be priorities. THESE should: Treating others with respect, realizing that there isn’t one method that works for everyone, being able to think for yourself.
You don’t even think I follow the Torah’s view on anything. That’s how screwed up you are. At least I, who thinks that many of your priorities are completely wrong, still think that you do try to follow the Torah’s view. That’s because I am not judgmental, I am understanding, mature, open-minded, and most importantly, respectful. I can’t say the same for you, unfortunately. Your perverse, arrogant attitude disappoints me greatly.
As far as disregarding Rabbonim, you need to change your words a little. Maybe I disgregard YOUR Rabbonim. And this is EXACTLY why I can’t stand people who blindly follow their Rabbonim and consider their word to be G-d’s, and everyone else is wrong. See how shallow that is? There are tons of Rabbonim out there, and from them, you’ll hear an infinite amount of opinions on anything. And then you’ll have people who say, “well, this one is one of the ‘Gedolim’, so certaintly he’s more correct than others”. Well guess what: He may be a “gadol” to you, whereas to someone else, another Rav, who argues, may be a “gadol” to him, and you’re back to square one. Here’s who I listen to: My mom. When my childhood got torn apart, and I was in desperate need of support and guidance, NO Rabbi ever gave me any. All I had was my mom. And she is, in my opinion, one of the biggest Tzadeikes’s in the world. She also happens to know more Torah than most people, including Rabbaim, that I know. She is an example of how to live the way G-d wants. And I try to emulate her.
Now, after I’ve said all this, I want you say “Thank you for finally stating your opinions”, instead of just getting all defensive and spouting some rude, immature response.
Logician, no, I don’t think saying “It’s fine for him” is a sign of weak intellect. I think it is a sign of maturity. Because I am able to understand the other side, and realize that perhaps his method is good for him. Not allowing yourself to see the other side because you are so blinded by your own beliefs is not intellect, it’s arrogance and immaturity.
And “Different things work for different people” is not at all the same as not having any view. It is having an OPEN view as opposed to a closed view. I DO have my opinion, and I realize you have yours, and I will not force mine onto you or consider yours “wrong” because I realize that for you, it is possible that your opinion and view works.
I don’t feel the need to respond to any of you in this matter anymore, and I feel that anything more that I say won’t change a thing, and that’s partially because someone who has such a close-minded view of everything, who considers himself to be correct and others wrong, can never grow. He can never think, “well, you know what, maybe he has a point.” “Maybe I should think about that”.
Take a look at the following threads I’ve started where I state some of my OPINIONS and good things to keep in mind.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-importance-of-listening
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/being-perceptive-its-amazing
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/apologizing-its-wonderful
Now, I want you see who has replied to my threads. They are mostly people who are ALREADY wonderful in those areas. Why? Because they ALLOW themselves to grow, and they’ve become greater. The people that I WANTED to have read my threads probably haven’t read them, and even if they did, didn’t care to respond because they refuse to believe that they can grow in these things.
All right there, take a nice deep breath, no don’t feel bad, its very healthy to vent every now and then…
Thanks, Logician, I appreciate your tame reaction to my outburst. Regarding my priorities, I’ve gotten most of them from my the way my mom raised me, and I consider my mom, as I said, a very righteous, G-d fearing person. So I don’t think they are an influence from the “American” value system. I actually dislike much of the American value system, as I think it encourages laziness and shallowness.
In regard to your middle paragraph, this may sound funny, but I think our disagreement here has a lot to do with our disagreement last week (or was it 2 weeks?) about “good” and “bad”, as I think they share the same foundation. Namely, that we can choose to see things the way they are using our current perspective (which would be seeing something as bad, and in this case, seeing ourselves as right and the other person as wrong), or we can choose to attempt to see things on a larger scale, undisturbed by our own personal perspectives, in which something “bad” may become good, and in this case, understanding that the other person may have another opinion because of his perspective. At least I think the two things are related.. what do you think?
Yes, I see what you mean about Rabbis “battling” out their opinions, and it’s true that many times, one opinion may have prevailed. At the same time, there is a vast amount of things that people still hold differently about, even after many years. And for these things, it is possible that there can be two or more valid approaches, depending on the person.
Thank you for this discussion. And Toi, I am sorry for my outburst, I just hope you can now see where I stand. Chag sameach to both of you and your families.
Again – you keep speaking of two perpectives. I am making a distiction between cases where you realize it depends who/where you are, and where your sechel tells you the other is wrong.
That is why I keep agreeing to your points – because of course there may be another valid way. What I am stressing is the idea that you may be aware that there is another way, because there are other ways to think, but according to your way of thinking, you are right and the other wrong. And that is why there are these battles – often we don’t say “there may be another valid way”, but we fight for our way.
i already bavorned your answer above- im not being defensive, just re-iterating- the value and weight you give to what you believe to be the end-all in serving Hashem are those imparted to you by an american liberal media and society, not the torah. if you would have been there when moshe called mi lashem eilay, you would have told him to sit down and think about it, maybe come to ana agreement. i fundamentally disagree with your policy of appeasement, and I give you a bracha that Hashem should open your eyes to the falicy of america 2012, all it stands for, and how terribly it impacts klal yisroel.
Logician, yes, it is possible if I think one way, even though I may know there are other ways of thinking, I obviously choose to the think the way I do because I feel that the other ways of thinking are wrong. But even with that, I can still understand that there are other ways of thinking. I see your distinction. Thanks for clarifying.
Toi, wonderful. So we have a disagreement in how to serve G-d, and that is something I think we both knew going in. If I truly am someone who’s values are not that of Torah, and that my beliefs terribly impact the Jewish nation, then I am saddened that being a kind-hearted, sensitive, thoughtful, caring, moral, and positive person are things that G-d doesn’t want, and are things considered “products of a corrupt American society”. Quite honestly, I’d rather die than give up those values. I’d rather die than be judgmental, rude, arrogant, and closed-minded. So far, in my time in the CR, I’ve helped many people find confidence, given an endless amount of support and care to a few who needed it, and possibly saved one from ending her life. And if you think all that makes me a person who is “terribly impacting the Jewish nation”, then you really need to sit down and rethink your own values. I am not saying this to insult you. I really think you should think this and ask yourself “What does G-d really want from me?”
Again, wishing you both a wonderful chag.
i didnt say you were, i said american values are. just clarifying. being thoughtful, sensitive, etc. is wonderful, i think so too. but, just as the midrash tells us with regard to mercy, having rachmonus on certain people is ossur. so too, is applying your good middos wrongly, in cases where they shouldnt. when moshiach comes and we go kill amalek, itll be ossur to spare them, like the navi tells us in the case of shaul and shmuel. im not bashing your middos tovos, im trying to say that when the torah requires us to have an opin ion about something, being wishy washy and trying to please everyone isnt b’derech hatorah, its b’derech liberalism. when jewish people try to make to’eiva marriages, we should respond, because Hashem called them that, not us. my values are, what does Hashem want from me, what does he want from the world, and am I helping that vision, or sidestepping issues and being ambiguous, thereby allowing a very different picure to be formed.
Ah, I see what you mean now. Yes, there are times when G-d wants us to use seemingly “negative” traits to serve him. Because, every middah can be used in a good way and in a bad way. I agree with you about that. However, here’s the thing: That is the absolute minority. I think that most of time, being an accepting, calm, peaceful person is how G-d wants us to be. Also, I think that even that minority lacks clarity, for the following reason: So a person isn’t supposed to show pity and support to someone who “strays from G-d”. The problem is that since there are many, many different interpretations of how to serve G-d in our generation, it is inevitable that someone raised in a certain sect will find himself being able to be closer to G-d in another, for whatever reason. So now, should his original sect berate him for that?? I don’t think so. So, I think one should be VERY careful about that. I do agree though that there is no place in Judaism for gay marriage. And yes, we must completely wipe out amalek when the time comes.
I think that in a perfect world, where everyone knows exactly the correct way to serve G-d (like when we received the torah), it is correct to ostracize those who rebel against G-d. But we are not in that world right now. The vast majority of Jews don’t follow your lifestyle, or even mine. And we cannot ostracize and condemn them for that, because since basic emunah is so lacking, anything they will view as negative from us can cause greater damage than good.
So yes, I agree with your above post if we were living in a world like when we received the torah. And when mashiach comes, we will be in that world, and even greater. Until then, I think we should be cautious.
That’s all I can post right now. Thanks for this discussion, and have a wonderful chag!
i dont think theres a mokom for caution- if its something our rabbis have said is bad and shouldnt happen, then it should be spoken out against. if not, then not. have a wonderful pesach.
a mamin, i didnt mean we should do everything out there b/c thats open minded, but what i meant was if schools taught us how to diffrenciate whats right and wrong on our own instead of setting out the rules for us maybe then we wouldnt be in as muich trouble. about facebook i think schools should lay out the pros(which there are many) and the cons, explain the dangers and stress the lines we draw for ourselves and being self aware. Are most teenagers mature enough? i think if they are taught how to THINK then they can be but the problem is schools aren’t doing that they jsut lay out the rules black and white.
http://www.facebook.com/YeshivaWorldNews
Just sayin…….
yes! schools should ban facebook! If students can control themselves from playing Facebook in class hours, there won’t be such kayos…
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