- This topic has 67 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 1 month ago by Sara.
July 31, 2017 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1329893
We all know that there are hundreds if not thousands of disenfranchised Yidden who would possibly remain frum but view the chassidish & yeshiva world as too rigid & sheltered for them. Many of these people often see no other alternative to completely breaking with their former communities & Yiddishkeit. There is a belief among some rabbonim that if we can help these people find a more easygoing frum community many would remain observant. Such an organization could be controversial because it may guide a girl from New Square who is ready to drop everything to a community in Baltimore where she can get a medical degree at John Hopkins University but remain frum. Only our manhigim can answer this question but this is something to think about.
(There is a fledgling organization called projectmakom.org which is attempting to do this but it still very small)July 31, 2017 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1329934
Footsteps is almost irrelevant. In the 12 years they’ve been around they’ve handled about 100 people over a period of over a decade. And most of those 100 were effectively not frum before they hooked up with the reshoyim at Footsteps.July 31, 2017 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1330117
In the current system, Chassidish and Yeshivish, the emphasis has swayed in favor of the external trappings of Yiddishkeit, with markedly little attention to Emunoh, Ahavas Hashem, Yir’as Hashem, Avodas Hashem, etc. In concert with that, our children are not guided or taught to love Torah and Mitzvos. If this attraction is absent, then our children go through their youthful years being guided to robotically fulfill their mandates of going to yeshiva, shul, etc. We fail to provide an adequate role model for them. It’s not the talking during davening, but the diversion of attention from the precious tefiloh to the mundane issues of the idle chatter. Giving mussar on the talking issue misses the greater problem of viewing tefiloh as a necessary obstacle to overcome so as to continue on with one’s day. You get the gist.
It may be useful to create more safety nets to catch those who are disillusioned. But it fails to repair the ho-hum attitude about being a Yid, gifted with the Torah and 613 paths to become closer to HKB”H, with the opportunity to do with the continuing heritage from our Avos, Rebbeim, with HKB”H cheering us every step of the way.
While I daven for the complete failure of the worst missionary organization to affect Klal Yisroel, known as Footsteps, I wish for our ship to become puncture proof, not patched from leaking. We have rendered our community holey, instead of holy. טעמו וראו כי טוב ה. A true Torah lifestyle is great, and that cannot be a message of mussar, but an inviting message of hope. We have created a serious attitude problem. Just making replacement safety nets misses the real issue.July 31, 2017 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1330134
What is your information based on?July 31, 2017 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1330133
Your solution might save the next generation but it’s too late for those disillusioned today. We can either ignore the problem & watch them drift away or we can try to find them a place within the frum community.July 31, 2017 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1330137
TLIK, the problems you describe are a direct result of balebatim following daas balebatim rather than following Daas Torah in how they are mechanech their children at home. Children on the internet, being spoiled with their gut desires and fancy accommodations results in the problems you enumerated in the subset of Yiddish homes living this lifestyle. These parents need a reality check and a change of parenting and shtatiness.July 31, 2017 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1330186
As usual, your blinders are glued on. Well, take them off.
Firstly, who would you suggest as Daas Torah for how to be mechanech my children at home?
Secondly, the children who have zero “sipuk” within the confines of Torah and Mitzvos are the ones who look elsewhere. Those kids are not snared by Footsteps, nor the internet, nor drugs, or any of the other scourges out there. The ones lacking the anchor in Torah are aimlessly wandering in search of something. They cannot settle on “sipuk”, because it does not exist elsewhere. So they opt for the gamut of worldly, physical pleasures. They go seeking for these. They have names. Drugs, movies, friendships that are worthy of disapproval, internet, Footsteps, and other such things. Happy kids do not shop elsewhere for nonsense, only empty kids who find no meaning in Yiddishkeit.
It’s not about Daas Torah or daas baalei batim.
What do you provide your own children?July 31, 2017 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1330189
Like usual, you missed the point. Simply put, the fault for what you describe lies with their parents.July 31, 2017 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1330191☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Doesn’t Jew in the City do this kind of work?July 31, 2017 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1330194
Project Makom is an off-shoot of JITC.August 1, 2017 7:30 am at 7:30 am #1330200YiddishkietfineParticipant
Joseph, sorry but you made me laugh on tisah bov, your ignorant about Footstepes is huge, unfortunately they are a big organization and keep growing, just recently as past weekend, they had an event with over “300” members, some that still kept Shabbos, the week before, they had in 2011 just 200 members, and two staff members, just 6 years later now, they have 15 staff members and “1700” footsteps members!!השם ירחםAugust 1, 2017 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1330209
Don’t believe their self-described numbers. They inflate their party get-together events by bringing people who were never frum so it doesn’t look so empty.
As far as workers, they’re funded by the liberal anti-religious organizations such as UJA Federation, so they have money. But they’re very ineffective.August 1, 2017 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1330236
The Anti-Kiruv organization is more successful than you are willing to admit. Its alot more than 100.
Some of the people who go to that organization are “Alternative Lifestyle” and Im not sure how to deal with such people in a frum environment.August 1, 2017 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1330242lesschumrasParticipant
Joseph, I know nothing of Footsteps. However, since you seem to be the expert, I have some questions.
A. How did you determine that they were ineffective
B. When you attended their events, how did you
figure out who the “never frum” were?
C. Regardless of the funding source, you never
answered the staffing issueAugust 1, 2017 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1330248
They’ve had so many suicides in their membership they they’ve earned the nickname Suicide Footsteps. They tend to heavily attract people with significant mental health problems.August 1, 2017 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1330308
If people with Mental Health problems only place to go is an anti–kiruv organization, then we have failed. They are not responsible for the suicides we are, as we did not give them a place to get betterAugust 1, 2017 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1330376DaMosheParticipant
Joseph, they’ve had suicides because the people who are coming to them are depressed from the way they were treated. Look at the most recent case – a girl died just a few weeks ago from an overdose. She had some learning disabilities and was kicked out of her school. Her parents were told by other schools that threats were made – if their daughter joined, other parents would pull their kids out! Is this really the world we live in? Is this how we should be looking at others? The principals and parents who were against her have her blood on their hands! They humiliated her, with their holier than thou attitude, and pushed her to leave Judaism, caused depression, and now she is dead. But I’m sure they think it was ok, because they didn’t want their daughter to have someone with a disability in the same school.
Footsteps exists because our system is broken. It takes children, our most prized possession, and tries to cram them into a mold. If they don’t fit, they are discarded, with no regard for their future.
Just another thing to mourn today.August 1, 2017 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1330415yaacoviParticipant
People like Joseph are the reason they commit suicide. We need a model that re-inspires and engages those that lose their connection not berate or estrange them. If the working model is to cage their minds then we/you will continue to lose people to organisations like Footsteps that opens up their minds in ways you cannot and shows them acceptance in ways you cannot.
And again Joseph believes his own statements on how small or ineffective they are. They are not huge but they are growing and their numbers are in the few 1,000s at least.
Joseph once people catch you saying stuff that is untrue they doubt anything else you say. That is often part of what happens to those straying – something doesn’t ring true and that’s the start of their outward journey.August 2, 2017 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1330450DovidBTParticipant
In reply to the original post, since Project Makom already exists, why not use it instead of starting a new organization?
But I think the basic problem in getting support is the lack of unity among the many groups of Orthodox Jews. Whatever you choose as a basic level of observance, there will be arguments.August 2, 2017 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1330497ChortkovParticipant
Footsteps is almost irrelevant. In the 12 years they’ve been around they’ve handled about 100 people over a period of over a decade. And most of those 100 were effectively not frum before they hooked up with the reshoyim at Footsteps.
I can’t tell you about the US, but in the UK, the sister program of Footsteps is not irrelevant. I know firsthand of victims who were still Shoimer Torah uMitzvos – albeit in a fragile, shattered framework – until Footsteps got their hands on them.August 2, 2017 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1330500
Footsteps is definitely more effective than 100 people over the last 12 years, I personally know at least 4 married women who joined, and I don’t even live in new York!
None of the women I know committed suicide, but I wouldn’t be surprised if depression was a factor.
I think we need to do some work on minimizing the stigma of mental illness in the frum community so those with depression don’t have to leave to feel accepted.August 2, 2017 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1330501
I just read their Wikipedia page, is this so different than the communist, bundist, etc groups that lured our youth off the derech in the shtetl?August 2, 2017 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1330503
For those suggesting Project Makom, If you check the website it seems to be a little outdated and I havent heard of many events lately. It started with a bang and seems to have fizzled. I dont know why or the specifics, If there are no events and little help like the Anti-kiruv organization gives then it is doomed to failAugust 2, 2017 7:38 am at 7:38 am #1330537papajakesParticipant
Firstly Footsteps has taken over 800 people off the derech and most were still frum. Rabbi Herbst met both Bobov Satmar and Square Rebbes a few years ago to discuss this topic. They all agreed it should be done. The cost though would be in the millions to purchase a brownstone and set up a staff, and that’s where it died.August 2, 2017 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1330570
The cost is not in the millions (Maybe over a period of many years)
You dont need a Brownstone in Brooklyn, you can rent a non-decript office in a non-chassidic part of Brooklyn for about $10,000 a month (Privacy needs to be important so a non-jewish area would be better)
You need 3 or 4 staff members to start, A secretary, Social Worker and a Rabbinical Advisor and a place you can rent (If if the office is not big enough) for group events once a week or one a month.
You can do for about $400,000 a year and you can combine the Social Worker and Secretary at least at first to save some funds. You also might be able to get some rooms at some shuls for free or discounted also to save some fundsAugust 2, 2017 8:35 am at 8:35 am #1330575
This is Allison Josephs – founder of JITC and Project Makom. We are indeed running and we are indeed growing. We had over 700 people join our Facebook group in year one with almost 200 unique individuals come out for in person events. In year two (our current year), we developed an intake process, hired a social worker, opened a database and developed a system for doing case management for our members which now number over 70. We are purposely growing not too fast so we can learn how to serve our current membership most effectively. Once we feel confident in our system, we will make ourselves more known. But as always, we don’t advertise in Charedi media – we advertise on Facebook and social media – as we’ve found that for the people who are already there coming from the most ultra-chasidishe communities, they have one foot out the door. Our services include: support groups, shabbos placement, mentor matching (I worked at Partners in Torah for 5 years and so our model is similar), monthly events (social gatherings, Torah classes, professional classes), shabbatons, referrals to GED and ESL programs. Our calendar has not been updated regularly. It’s our list of things to do. We started this branch of JITC because people who wanted to leave their community of origin but still stay frum approached us for help staying frum. Our members are interested in a range of communities from heimishe to right-wing modern Orthodox. We only show halachic drachim but offer a range of choices as we believe there is more than one right derech and people who were not succeeding where they were might have a better chance in a new community if they visit new ones and get to choose it. If you want to help us grow, please be in touch (Sorry, contact info is not allowed) Thanks!August 2, 2017 8:40 am at 8:40 am #1330579
“It started with a bang and seems to have fizzled. I dont know why or the specifics, ”
It is because most chassidim dont view Modern orthodox as a lighter form of Judaism, they are raised to believe it is all or nothing.
So if a chassid is going to throw away his upbringing, ie go to college, what is the point in still keeping some restrictions, he isnt going to be Religous anyway, (since he is going to college, maybe not wearing a shtreimel) he may as well go all the way.
It would eb like asking a OTD from the Yeshivish community “why arent you at least reform?”
OF course not all feel this way, but many if not most do.August 2, 2017 9:39 am at 9:39 am #1330578
If you want to help us, you can be in touch on our contact page on http://ProjectMakom.orgAugust 2, 2017 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1330660DovidBTParticipant
I think it’s great that you jumped into this dialog. It’s nice to have a primary source represented here. The discussions usually involve second- and third-hand information.
I’m curious why the Project Makom team seems to consist only of women. Do you think that’s a limiting factor for men who may be looking for a different halachic derech?August 2, 2017 10:10 am at 10:10 am #1330676
You wrote: “So if a chassid is going to throw away his upbringing, ie go to college, what is the point in still keeping some restrictions, he isnt going to be Religous anyway, (since he is going to college, maybe not wearing a shtreimel) he may as well go all the way.”
I must take serious issue. I am fully aware that going to college has its risks, and that many advise against it. However, there are B”H many today who have handled going through college with advanced degrees, and remain as kadosh and tahor as those who work as klai kodesh. I include fields of law, medicine, psychology, social work, computers, business, etc. Without a doubt, you will find rotten apples in those barrels, but they are to be found in groups of people who function within the many rabbinical positions as well. There are quite many who don the shtreimel who have college education, and serve Klal Yisroel with honor and dignity. Pursuing a career does NOT translate into “throwing away his upbringing” anymore than getting training as an accountant means eating chazzer on Yom Kippur. When we give our youth the message that doing anything besides schnorring off others to sit in kollel forever is abandoning one’s heritage, we create a mess. The message is clearly untrue, and the damage is not done by the person seeking a career, but by misguided, misleading fools.
I am not pushing college education on anyone. You need it for the careers I referenced above. And the decision to pursue such careers requires guidance and commitment, both to Torah and to the field of study. It also requires a Rebbe to serve as a guide to help maintain one’s heritage, and the constant exposure to kedusha. But such paths do NOT take someone away from Yiddishkeit, unless these misleading advisers push them away.August 2, 2017 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1330687
Glad to be here 🙂 We have never gotten feedback that our female staff made anyone feel limited. We didn’t davka try to only hire women. Although because our entire staff is part time, I don’t know how easy it would be for us to find a man to work for us. Generally, they are more responsible for the bread winning in the family, whereas women can work p/t and care for their children. be”H as we grow and can offer competitive f/t salaries, we’d be happy to add male staff members too. Our director of social services deals with the OTD crowd a lot. She started off as a volunteer – she approached us. When we had funding to hire someone she had already created a rapport with our members, so we went to her. In terms of our director of programming and networking, these women grew up Chasidic themselves and found happy, healthy places in the frum world.. So they are excellent resources to show people who have gone through pain that there is happiness on the other end. We have plenty of male speakers and rabbanim we connect members with, so there is no shortage of male voices for our members.August 2, 2017 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1330715
You are preaching to the choir.
Im not saying the attitude I mentioned is true, nor is it universal.
It may not even be a conscious message that is delivered.
But it is one that is received.
I speak from first and (mostly) second hand experience. There are many in the chasidic world who would disown their children if they went to college even if they “remain as kadosh and tahor as those who work as klai kodesh”
This makes organizations like Project Makom all the more important, and is precisely why they exist!
But it is also why they have a harder time recruiting than say FootstepsAugust 2, 2017 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1330717
More women tend to go in Social Work than men do, Social Workers are a very important part of these organizationsAugust 2, 2017 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1330771
Just curious – cause my “second-hand experience” shows exactly the opposite – what percentage of Chasidic OTD parents disown their children for becoming OTD (not simply going to college)? The tide has definitely turned IMHO, so I think Ubiq you are totally off the mark.
Allison, I’d love to hear your input if you can spare the time. Thanks.August 2, 2017 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1330779
We have parents who have disowned the kids for moving to a new community even though they retain the levush and minhagim. But, we are seeing the most difficult cases. For the people who make changes and have familial support, they wouldn’t come to us necessarily. I think we are making progress – more parents are being more accepting. But we are not there yet. There are still plenty of Jews who are coming to us to make a real, sincere connection to HKB”K but because they are making any change from how they were raised is enough for the family to cut them off.August 2, 2017 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1330784NeutiquamErroParticipant
Just a random side point. The quote in the excellent book The Big Short about Steve Eisman, the founder of Footsteps, is that ‘He couldn’t even give his money away without starting a fight’. Unfortunately, the worst part about this organisation is that it doesn’t just fulfil its stated aims to ‘help’ people who have left the community, it aims to actively persuade vulnerable people to leave the kehilla. It’s UK counterpart is just as bad, as it focuses heavily on hitting back at the community it’s left, causing problems with regards to religious schools, kashrus and chinuch, all matters that are particularly volatile right now in this country anyway. There were several articles in a major newspaper several weeks ago where one particular young OTD bochur gave an interview in which he basically slandered the entire community, with charges that lacked any semblance to reality. The paper in question repeated all his accusations as if they were gospel, refused to listen to counterarguments, an supported his statements with comments from a female Reform ‘rabbi’ that were too completely false. The angle they took was education, but they used it to tar the entire community with a particularly thick brush. A counterpoint organisation would have a very difficult job getting the necessary publicity to counter these accusations, but it woul be a very useful resource for the frum kehilla.August 2, 2017 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1330827
“what percentage of Chasidic OTD parents disown their children for becoming OTD (not simply going to college)?”
It isnt about disowning per se. and yes the tide might be turning.
I’m concerned I’m being unclear
My point isnt what would happen if a chassid left. Im wiling to bet, that any parent when faced with a choice of their son leaving their derech would rather they remain observant. But it isnt presented that way, its not like A kid tells his parents, ok Im going to Colege, do you still want me to keep Kosher and wear tefillin?
The question is what attitude they are receiving.
Chasidim are taught that their way is the only derech and other segments arent really observent.
The same way in our circles. It is rare for Yeshsihvish people to leave the fold and become Reform. People who leave generally leave completly.
Why is that? IF Yeshivish society is too “restrictive” just be Reform and go to Shul at least 3 days a year. It is because we dont view Reform as a “less restrictive” form of Judaism. ditto for chasidim and MO.
Again not all, and this isnt necessarily a message that is actively given.August 2, 2017 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1330843☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Steve Eisman, the founder of Footsteps
Are you sure he’s the founder? I read that he’s a board member, but not the founder.August 2, 2017 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1330845
The founder of the Anti-Kiruv organization was a woman named “Queen Black”August 2, 2017 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1330846
I happen to think that reform is not a viable option. Reform is NOT the same thing as becoming MO and wearing a blue shirt and getting an accounting degree or whatever, just examples of a viable frum life one can lead outside the yeshivish and chasidish communities.
Reform is not one degree less frum than MO. There are huge differences (some of which have been blurred by OO) but someone who leaves the frum community and joins reform might not even have Jewish children.
I do think many parents would disown a child who became reform, but not one who made minor changes in their derech. And FYI I grew up chasidish, and where I grew up these minor changes would not be grounds for disowning a child. It would be grounds for the neighbors to yenta, though.
🙁August 2, 2017 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1330852
To many the Lvush , the beard and Peyes are very important as is shaving the hair.
If you change your dress, shave your beard and cut your peyes or let your hair grow its as good as going reformAugust 2, 2017 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1330912
” happen to think that reform is not a viable option. Reform is NOT the same thing as becoming MO and wearing a blue shirt and getting an accounting degree or whatever,”
I agree one hundred percent. And (probably) most chasidim would agree if you asked that way (im not sure, but Many if not most would agree)
The bottom line is that is the received message
For example there are some chassidus that believe Zionism is yaharog Ve’al yaavor. (this is a non-controversial stament and an argument about zionism is completely irrelevant to this thread) Now imagine someone from that community gets caught up in Zionism and for whatever reason is swayed by Zionist Arguments (maybe from the coffee room). He was taught all his life that the beliefs he now accepts are yeharog ve’al yaavor. Whether that was meant literal yor not is completely irrelevant. He has now embraced a belief that he was taught is among the worst avaira possible. Is there any wonder if he decides that he might as well not keep kosher?
Again of course if he would ask his chasidish parents,”Hi I am zionist now, do you think I should still keep Kashrus?” They would likely say yes. But that isnt usually how people leave their upbringing. And as they start to leave it sint like their parents will say “ITs ok that you are zinoist now just be sure to keep all the other mitzvos” Nor should they be saying that, they woudl (rightly!) do everything possible to keep their child on their derech.
It is the same for college or as ZD says even changing the LEvush. Chasisim were able to keep their strong mesora, precisely by elevating it to such a degree. However IT does come with a cost . And I am by no means judging whether that cost is worth it or not, but it is there.August 2, 2017 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1331009
Ubiq, thanks for explaining. When you put it that way I hear where this is coming from.August 2, 2017 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1331045mw13Participant
Don’t know if anybody else said this, but I once heard from R’ Yitzchok Fingerer, Rav of BJX, that he and his wonderful institution are involved in combating Footsteps.August 2, 2017 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1331140
Kol hakavod to Rav Yitzchok Fingerer and BJX. They do fabulous kiruv work. Expecting them to succeed in combating Footsteps is like matching an ant to a Sherman tank. We need to understand a bit more about what that wicked organization is, how they work, and who is affected by it.
It looks for adults, not just teens. It is well schooled in how missionaries work, and they have used a Yiddishe kopp to develop ways of snaring our own right from under our eyes. The sales pitch is about how they catch Chassidishe souls who are dropping out, and offer them training, jobs, GED, social supports, etc. While they do some of this access, it is secondary to their real goal. They are h*ll bent on taking as many neshamos away from Yiddishkeit, and accomplish this by creating a dependency for these resources. They indoctrinate against Torah and mitzvos, teaching their prey to look at the steps of throwing away Yiddishkeit and heritage as honorable achievements. They are insidious and parasitic.
The real antidote for this poison is simchas hachaim within the fold of Yiddishkeit. It may truly be secondary what malbush someone wears, with all due respect to family minhagim. But if our young people lose passion for Torah and Mitzvos, they are easy prey for these predators.
Now comes the hard question. What are we, as a community, having our leaders, yeshivos, and schools, doing to make being a frum Yid something inherently gratifying? Do we demonstrate a feeling of accomplishment in having davened in the morning, or are we thrilled to be done with it so that we can move on to our other activities of the day? Do we enjoy learning, or has it been diverted into a competitive exercise (under the mistakenly interpreted קנאת סופרים? Are we busy looking to be the biggest tzaddik, the best bochur in yeshiva, the worthy recipient of kavod, getting the last word in on a debate in the CR, fame or fortune?
If we made our mission for our young generation to insure their experience of Torah and Mitzvos was precious and enjoyable, we would have little to no loss to missionaries like Footsteps. But, alas, we are not fulfilling ואהבת את ה’ אלקיך, in which we are obligated to achieve שתהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך. There is occasional lip service to Ahavas Hashem. But where is the action? If we cannot see the impact, then we are not doing the job.
It would be a lovely idea to make the approaching Elul into a month of seeking Ahavas Hashem. Teshuvah becomes much easier.August 3, 2017 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1331234NeutiquamErroParticipant
DaasYochid: The book claimed that he has a large part in funding it during its inception, and was ‘a’ founder’, if not ‘the’ founder, and I give rather more credence to Michael Lewis than I do to Wikipedia.
But In was inexact in my use of language, and I apologise.August 3, 2017 7:02 am at 7:02 am #1331248
I found this article published this past June in Tablet magazine “WHAT BECOMES OF TROUBLED ULTRA-ORTHODOX KIDS?” about what’s being done in Israel, very inspiring and eye-opening.
And interesting that Michael Bloomberg (who I generally don’t admire) through his “Jerusalem Innovation Team” is involved in coordinating the various organizations. Unless there’s some hidden agenda I’m missing, or it’s not true/exaggerated, we have a lot to learn and incorporate. And of course need philanthropists and perhaps government funding right here in NY to implement something like this over here on a mass scale. (Not so fast with our government for various reasons, I’m not kidding myself.)
Then maybe “Footsteps” will become obselete in a few years. Hey a girl can dream…
Anyone have some input?
One of the things that struck me is how the founder of a few institutions, Esther Rozman, specifically doesn’t lump all at-risk kids together, as drugs etc. can become an issue for those exposed to others that are worse off. Maybe Malky Klein would have been alive today if we had such institutions here.
(Incidentally, for those that haven’t yet heard her father’s interview, it’s really a must to listen to.)
Also noteworthy, no mention of the word “stigma” or “shidduchim” in the whole article. So perhaps Israelis truly are a different breed, the author doesn’t want to give these fears legitimacy, or she is simply unaware of these simmering issues.August 3, 2017 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1331293
There is a certain attitude in the New York area about elitism and outdoing the Joneses (ie better car, nicer house) etc. Unfortunatly it seems some of these attitudes have infiltrated the frum communities in the NY area, expect its not outdoing the Joneses by a nicer car but outdoing the Goldbergs by outfrumming them and these attitudes can be very damaging to those who cannot keep upAugust 3, 2017 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1331599
Mods: I guess I shouldn’t have thanked you in advance…
Can you maybe post some of it? It was a really Kosher article IMHO.August 3, 2017 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1332523zaltzvasserParticipant
Ruchie Freier started a program through BramsonORT (a college intended for immigrants who do not speak english as their first language) to help chassidim get their GEDs and learn english, although I think it may only be for boys (not sure) because chassidish girls usually graduate high school. and speak english
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