November 18, 2009 5:00 am at 5:00 am #671918
“Oomis: refuah shleimah!”
Thanks so much Tzippi. I am B”H on the mend.
To respond to NY Mom : The thalidomide comparison IS a valid one, in relation to the H1N1 vaccine. We do not yet know the effects of this vaccine on a first trimester pregnancy.The docs in the 50s thought thalidomide was a miracle drug for pregnancy nausea. That is, until the babies of the mothers who took it, were born. I am leery of any possible teratogenic effects that could occur before this vaccine has had sufficient study. It is not exactly like every other flu vaccine, because the disease is more dangerous than most typical strains of flu. It stand to reason that the vaccine to prevent it could be more virulent, as well. My doc will not give it.November 18, 2009 9:03 am at 9:03 am #671919NobodyMember
I would never tell anyone what yes or not to do but I do feel that this vaccine has been produced too quickly with insufficient testing done.
My concerns are that G-d forbid we should not be in a situation as in 1959 with the Thalidomide vaccine which was also rushed onto the market and hailed as a wonder drug.November 18, 2009 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #671920
“My concerns are that G-d forbid we should not be in a situation as in 1959 with the Thalidomide vaccine which was also rushed onto the market and hailed as a wonder drug. “
That is EXACTLY what I posted. We are on the same page here. I don’t know why more people are not concerned about its safety,at this early stage. In any case, it is a choice people make. I had the flu twice last year (regular varieties) and I was very sick for several months on and off. I still would not rush to get the H1N1 vaccine.
I do recommend that everyone follow the safety guidelines for cold prevention, wash the hands, wash, the hands. wash the hands, keep Purell sanitizing hand wash nearby and in your car. Spray your telephone and doorknobs with Lysol and take zinc, vitamin c, and echinachea. I started to come down with a cold which I caught from my baby ainekel, just prior to having my surgery. Had I become ill with what this typically would become, they would have cancelled. I really doctored myself (went to the doc actually, but he said he couldn’t do anything), took the aforementioned vitamins and minerals through the day, and what normally would turn into a two week “chasunah” was with me two days and I was fine, B”H.November 18, 2009 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #671921
I posted this on page 1 but apparently people only read the last few posts.
Its not a new vaccine. Its the same flu shot as always the only difference is the strain of flu put into the shot which changes constantly with the virus out there now.
There are no new unknown side effects because the parts of the vaccine with side effects have been around for years.November 18, 2009 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #671922mazcaMember
Well I live in Mexico and guest what we don’t have the vaccine yet so no question I guess I am not getting it. Is it a business?November 18, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #671923sammygolMember
Thalidomide was NOT a vaccine, but a drug supposed to counteract nausea of pregnancy. Not only was it never a vaccine, it was never claimed to have been one, and, like all other new drugs, had associated risks of unknown side effects. There is absolutely no comparison. Not in composition, not in biological pathways, not in action. The basic flu vaccine has been used for decades, and every single year is modified to include the new strains of the virus. Swine flu is just another of those strains, even if more virulent and more dangerous.
EDITEDNovember 18, 2009 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #671924
No new side effects? What about the muscle paralysis that some have gotten? And no one is claiming Thalidomide was a vaccine – just that it was given routinely to women as something supposedly beneficial and the devastating side effects were not known until after the babies were born. A drug is a drug is a drug. Some are harmless, but others cross the placenta and cause great harm. Since we do not yet know if the and how the swine flu vaccine might affect pregnant women, I would be hesitant to give it out. And since we also do not know the long-term effects on the rest of the population, I amw ith my doctor on this one. Int he emantime, I am buying out the Purell hand sanitizer.November 18, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #671925
The misinformation and fearmongering re the vaccine is mind boggling.November 18, 2009 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #671926feivelParticipant
fearmongering is simply an inflammatory term to deride the caution of those one disagrees with.
misinformation? actually a lack of information as well. any new medical product is by nature an unknown no matter how “thoroughly” it has been tested. the history of medicine proves this, notwithstanding the arrogance of the medical profession who tend to declare any product “safe” as long has it hasnt yet been proven to be unsafe.
of course medical science has to balance the likelihood of risk against the probable benefit, but tends to consistently ignore the unknown, and declare safe anything that hasnt been proven harmful. there is cunning and thorough science in the medical profession, but little common sense.
i dont have a position on this vaccine.November 18, 2009 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #671927
I heard of someone that just got a flu vaccine and is in the hospital because of paralysis. Is that possible?November 18, 2009 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #671928
I appreciate your response but my point wasn’t “to deride the caution of those one disagrees with”. You can disagree but most of the issues in the above posts were based on a)lack of knowledge on the vaccine b)misinformation and C) fear.November 18, 2009 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #671929
Many people became concerned about complications from the swine flue vaccine after a cheerleader reported that she had been diagnosed with dystonia–a movement disorder in the brain–shortly after she received the vaccine. She claimed that physicians at Johns Hopkins examined her and provided this diagnosis; however, she didn’t give her treatment team permission to discuss her case, so they couldn’t confirm her statements. Other neurological experts who observed tapes of her moving maintain that her illness is psychogenic, and therefore not a result of any vaccine.
Luckily, she now says that she was cured through chelation therapy, which she claims removed the toxins from the vaccine that had affected her brain. She reports that within minutes of beginning the therapy, her symptoms began to resolve. Neurologists have noted that someone suffering from true dystonia could not experience a cure that quickly. The brain damage which causes dystonia simply doesn’t go away that fast. This lightning-fast “cure” confirms that her disease was psychogenic. This isn’t to say she was “faking”; she may well have believed that her movement problems were caused by the vaccine.November 18, 2009 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #671930feivelParticipant
lack of knowledge and misinformation arent good
fear isNovember 18, 2009 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #671931
don’t believe everything you read and see on the internet. I don’t know what the motivation is for scaring people with videos like the one of the girl with dystonia. Does anyone have a video of a child who just died of H1N1 flu. There’ve been over 7,000 confirmed deaths from H1N1 so far.
Temporary paralysis from Guillaume-Barre syndrome occurs in about 1 in a MILLION vaccinations. Death from the flu is consistently about 1.5 deaths per THOUSAND cases, but can be higher with novel flu strains, such as H1N1. Worldwide, for swine flus, it has been as high as 3%, as in 1918.
So, here are the irrefutable odds: 1 in a 1000 chance or higher of dying of the flu under normal circumstances. Could be much higher this year VS. 1 in 1,000,000 chance of temporary paralysis due to vaccine, and 1 in 10,000,000 or so of dying from the vaccine. There’s really no argument.November 18, 2009 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #671933
This year’s death toll has been higher in high risk groups.
High-risk groups include those with asthma, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, children with neurodevelopmental conditions, or women who are pregnant or have a weakened immune system. There are small subsets of patients, even among young persons previously healthy, who rapidly develop severe pneumonia, typically 3 to 5 days after initial onset of symptoms. Deterioration can be very rapid, with many patients progressing to respiratory failure within 24 hours, requiring intensive care and ventilation support.November 19, 2009 12:02 am at 12:02 am #671934
Arc, lack of knowledge is PRECISELY the reason why so many doctors are not yet giving a thumbs up to this vaccine. If there were sufficient knowledge of a positive nature, we would all be vaccinated by now. Lack of knowledge does not = ignorance. Not int he way that is being implied. Scientists in the mnedical community also lack sufficient knowledge about this vaccine. It is too new to have provided us with knowledge of its long-term ramifications.November 19, 2009 12:43 am at 12:43 am #671935
ronsnr, the motivation for posting that video about the cheerleader with dystonia is to “prove” to people the danger of the swine flu vaccine. As my post above explains, though, her dystonia was psychogenic in nature, and as such, not attributable to any vaccine.November 19, 2009 2:55 am at 2:55 am #671936
There’s a truism in the information biz that a lie is halfway around the world before truth has a chance to put its pants on.
That is the case here. We see the one girl who has some side-effects, psychogenic or otherwise, and that is strange and new enough to convince some people that the vaccine will be bad for them. Perhaps there should be a video, in the interest of fairness, showing the deaths of the thousands of people who died of the flu, and some of the suffering and regrets of their families.
Is there even enough time to watch that?November 19, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #671937
After discussing it with my Doctor I don’t believe the lack of knowledge is with doctors rather it’s the parents.
Feivel, why is fear(of the unknown when the knowledge is out there)good?November 19, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #671938
Complete knowledge is NOT yet out there (how can it be – the swine flu is relatively recent). It is a leap of faith, and some are not yet prepared to take it. Why think of them negatively? They are erring on the side of caution, doctors included. Once that vaccine is in you, whatever its ramifications will be good or bad, you are stuck with it (pun intended).November 19, 2009 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #671939
Hi Oomis, that is the opposite of the way most people fear disease.
We tend to fear the disease that is new and novel and in the news, and not fear the more common and potent threats to our health.November 19, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #671940
:bangingheadonwall: “Complete knowledge is NOT yet out there” it is the same shot as always the virus strain is the only difference.November 19, 2009 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #671941
Give it up! As many times as you write it, whoever doesn’t want to understand, will continue to refuse to accept what you are saying! They don’t understand and they don’t WANT to understand.
Meanwhile, I’m trying to figure out where to get my H1N1 shot…My doctor doesn’t have it so…I heard that some politician offices are offering it. I’ll have to figure it out.November 19, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #671942
NY Mom, do you live in NYC? If so, I’ve heard there are swine flu vaccination clinics on Sundays in November & December; call 311 for more information.
NJ health officials announced yesterday that there were 6 swine flu deaths in the state this past week.November 19, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #671943workingMember
Does anyone know the pros and cons of taking the shot while pregenantNovember 19, 2009 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #671944
Ask you Ob/GynNovember 19, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #671945
“Give it up! As many times as you write it, whoever doesn’t want to understand, will continue to refuse to accept what you are saying! They don’t understand and they don’t WANT to understand.”
I personally don’t have a problem with the shot, but there’s room for other opinions, particularly when some doctors are saying to hold off! I think if someone’s doctor said to hold off, the patient absolutely DOES want to understand, and they are fully understanding the fact that it’s important to follow their own doctor’s advice.
EDITEDNovember 19, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #671946
whatever choice someone makes, with his doctor’s advice, should be respected.November 19, 2009 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #671948
Bemused: I’m sorry if you took offense, however I was reacting arc’s head banging against the wall, because pple do not seem to understand what arc has explained several times, which is that the H1N1 vaccine is prepared the same way that all the flu vaccines are prepared, with the only exception being the strain of the virus added. So it is just wrong to compare this to a drug like Thalidomide.
Sorry oomis1105, I really respect you, but in this case it does not makes sense to compare Thalidomide which was a drug specifically marketed to pregnant women to prevent nausea and the problem was that it wasn’t tested properly or widely enough before being released to the public. This type of vaccine has been produced for so many years and it is only the strain of virus which is new. In fact they change the strain of flu virus added every year bec. no one knows which flu may go around the coming year.
If your doctor tells you to hold off on getting the vaccine to make sure others do not have a negative reaction, then by all means do so. However, how long does it mean to hold off? Better clarify exactly what that means, because pple are getting VERY sick from this flu and perhaps at this point your dr. would say that enough pple have received the shot w/o consequence, so now it is safe.
Hope that clarifies what I meant.November 19, 2009 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #671949
I didn’t take offense at all, I don’t have a problem. But it IS offensive to speak so mockingly of those that are following their doctor’s orders.
I think you didn’t mean your off the cuff remark- we all say things “in the passion of the moment”.November 19, 2009 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #671950
BTW, my husband actually asked a friend of his who is a respected doctor whether or not to get the vaccine. He said that the doctors who are recommending holding off on it, is because of the concern that the vaccine may not have been was prepared properly, due to the rush to produce enough for the coming flu season. That seems to be the real concern regarding this vaccine’s safety.
So the question now is: Has this concern been justified, yet? If not then there should be no hesitation in pple getting vaccinated, unless of course there is some other medical condition which prevents you from doing so.November 20, 2009 1:26 am at 1:26 am #671951
Bemused: NY Mom, I didn’t take offense at all, I don’t have a problem. But it IS offensive to speak so mockingly of those that are following their doctor’s orders.
I think you didn’t mean your off the cuff remark- we all say things “in the passion of the moment”.
Well, thank you for being dan l’kaf zechus, because I did not mean to mock pple for following their doctor’s orders.
What I was LOLing about was the way arc kept making the same point over and over and then expressed himself in this way “:bangingheadonwall:”.
And when I said: “As many times as you write it, whoever doesn’t want to understand, will continue to refuse to accept what you are saying! They don’t understand and they don’t WANT to understand.” I did not mean to mock pple for having an opposing opinion or point of view, rather I was referring specifically to the point he was making over and over, which was never refuted or even acknowledged by those arguing the point. It was like a parallel conversation, and he was obviously a bit frustrated by that.
So once again, thank you for being dan l’kaf zechus, and I hope that clears things up.November 20, 2009 3:04 am at 3:04 am #671952
Yes, it does! 🙂November 20, 2009 3:13 am at 3:13 am #671953
I understood and appreciated your response earlier I guess we have to be careful of context.
That is exactly my frustration.November 24, 2009 6:21 am at 6:21 am #671954
H1N1 vaccine update:
according to the World Health Organization (WHO): 65 million people have been vaccinated to date. There have been 10 known cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, an auto-immune based paralyzing condition often seen following viral infection.
The WHO said that number is in keeping with background rates, but each case is being investigated for vaccine association. None of the cases caused deaths.
The agency said the side-effects have been typical of flu vaccines:November 24, 2009 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #671955havesomeseichelMember
Canada is recalling a whole batch of over 100,000 doses made by Glaxo-Smith-Kline… they were found to cause an extreme amount of allergic reactions to the people given it. There was a few kids in midwest America who nearly died from the shot. At least one actually got h1n1 from the vaccine, while others had really bad reactions.
Just makes you wonder how safe it really is.November 24, 2009 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #671956
For anyone who DOES get the flu, if you are given tamiflu, be aware that it has the potential side effect of severe nausea and vomiting, resulting in dehydration.November 24, 2009 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #671957
Coming from a Doctor…
The CDC sent out a warning that there are very high levels of mercury in the H1N1 vaccine, more than advised, and they do not know much about the vaccine and didn’t not have ample time to test it.
If the CDC is admitting to the high levels of mercury, and there are always higher than recommended levels in vaccines..imagine how much is really in there this time.
Swine flu is as dangerous as the regular flu (which is not just a few sniffles) if your immune system can handle it than there is no issue..
Bottom line.. If you have a pre-existing condition such as asthma, other respiratory diseases, or any other condition or status that makes you more susceptible to the flu (old, kids, immunocompromised..) the vaccine is recommended.November 24, 2009 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #671958
I know someone personally in mexico who is in the hospital with guillan barre (it was a reaction to the seasonal flu shot not H1N1)November 24, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #671959
There was no such letter from the CDC – you or the doctor may verify this on the CDC website, http://www.cdc.gov , if you wish.
The situation is confusing enough for some people without patently false information being spread to muddy up the water.
with the Internet:
A lie is half-way around the world before truth has a chance to put on its pants in the morning.
EDITEDNovember 24, 2009 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #671960
Also, his assertion that swine flu is the same as the regular flu is also not the case.
H1N1 flu is a novel flu, a sort that hasn’t been seen widely in 30 years, so most younger people don’t have ANY immunity to it. That’s why there are many more cases of H1N1 this year than you would have of a regular seasonal flu, which is similar to previous seasonal flus, and some of us have some immunity to it, so it does not spread as rapidly.
Second, there is the possibility of a deadly mutation of H1N1 – World Health Organization scientists are concerned about one such strain now in the Netherlands and five other countries, that seems to attack the lungs much worse than standard H1N1 flu.
Third, there is always the very real possibility of a flu strain in future years (swine or bird) that will be novel and a big killer, such as the 1918 flu, which killed over 3% of the world population. It killed mostly young, healthy people, whereas the seasonal flu tends to kill the very young and the very old.
Discover Magazine had a quote from a public health worker that sums up the situation:
The killer flu is like the boy who cried wolf. Except the wolf is still there.
We have been lulled into complacency because the killer swine flu did not materialize in 1976, and it appears that this year’s variety may not be a huge killer flu.
This can be likened to the words of the man who jumped off the Empire State Building, as he passed the second floor, “So far, so good.”November 24, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #671961
If what Ronrsr says is true, than I retract my post and apologize for relaying false information as it was given to me.November 24, 2009 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #671962
ps. I am now going to try to find an accurate source for the CDCs notice, which I should have done before posting the informationNovember 24, 2009 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #671963
Yes, dear Mybat, some people have gotten Guillaum-Barre syndrome. Some of them would have gotten it anyway, since it is a body’s reaction to a viral infection. Those cases, and there are currently about 10 cases of G-B worldwide, after 65 million vaccines have been given. This is much less than the expected number, one in a million.
Some of the people who got G-B may have gotten it anyway, even without the vaccine.
Take these situations:
A, A person with heart disease gets the flu shot. He walks outside, and dies of a heart attack. Would he have had the heart attack anyway? Or did the vaccine cause the heart attack.
B. A person gets the flu vaccine, walks outside, gets hit by a car.
Out of the 65 million people who got the flu vaccine, a few got married shortly thereafter, some got divorced, some became fathers, a few got the flu, and maybe one or two won the lottery, and about 10 got Guillaume-Barre syndrome, and perhaps a few had heart attacks.
Some of those things happpened just because things happen in our lives, and 65 million people is a large group – you can statistically predict what will happen within such a large group. These things would have happened whether or not they got the flu vaccine.
It is very likely that some of the people who got G-B got it because of the flu vaccine, and some got it because they would have gotten it anyway as their body’s reaction to some infection other than the flu vaccine.
Scientists are watching those cases very carefully to determine which are related to the vaccine.
A batch of flu vaccine was recalled this morning, because it caused higher than usual allergic reactions. This is being watched very carefully.
But it does not change the point: Your chances of getting temporary paralysis due to Guillame-Barre syndrome is one in several million. Your chance of dying of the flu is somewhat over one in a thousand in a normal year. There’s still really no comparison.November 24, 2009 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #671964
Yes ronsr, I know that chances of dying from the flu is higher than GB. I was shocked when I heard about this person, he is a very big baal chesed in the community and Hashem should send him a complete Refua Shelema!November 24, 2009 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #671965
The recall wasnt related to a lack of research on the vaccine. Rather a bad batch there is a big difference.November 24, 2009 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #671966
yes, I know. contrary to popular rumor, no shortcuts were taken on this vaccine. It took months to produce, and went through the whole FDA approval and testing process, same as any other vaccine.
I apologize to Haifagirl if I have offended her.November 24, 2009 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #671967
Dear havesomeseichel — The recall is evidence that the vaccine is safe, and that all protective measures are being taken, and they are working.November 24, 2009 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #671968
Flu vaccines have been made pretty much the same way for the last 50 years. This one is no exception.November 25, 2009 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #671969
Dear Mybat, I wish a Refuah Shlema to your acquaintance.
He is one of the winners (or losers) in the flu vaccine lottery, I suppose. He is suffering because thousands of others have been saved from suffering, but he is truly is unfortunate. Chances are he would not have gotten Guillain-Barre’ syndrome w/o the flu shot.
But, 999,999 other people got the vaccine, and at least 1000 of them will avoid death, and many will avoid suffering. Prayers for his health should peppered with prayers of gratitude.
Thanks heavens that Hashem gave us a big brain so that some of us could understand some of the universe he created so well that we are able to alleviate so much human suffering in our world.
Please bless and keep the public health workers, the scientists, the doctors and the nurses who have devoted themselves to partnering with Hashem to make life in this world healthier and better.
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