Should Wedding gowns for the extended family be discontinued?

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  • #1773181

    Haimy
    Participant

    I understand why the Kallah & mother’s in law wear a special gown but why does the extended family need to go through the expense, time, & bother to rent or buy a gown for one time use? Can’t a takanah be made to discontinue this practice? Wouldn’t a fancy Shabbos dress be as respectable & usable in the future?
    We’ve done away with other needless chasunah expenses why not this one?

    #1773530

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is no chiyuv for the bridesmaids and family members to wear a designer gown selected by the kalah….she may “suggest” they do so and if they don’t want to incur the expense, just say “thank you but I’d prefer not to”. These kinds of meshugaas get started and proliferate because people seem to lose their voice and don’t push back on these expensive minhagim that have no basis in Halacha and really do little in the context of being “mesameach choson v’kalah”. Whether it is a “destination wedding” where guests may have to spend thousands of dollars in air travel or hotel expenses to some “exotic” location or expectations of large cash gifts, invitees should do what they can afford and no more. Likewise, the families of the choson/kalah should be prepared to pick up the bill for special dresses if that is what they want to bridal part to wear. If some of the bridal party may be unfamiliar with the halachos of tzinius, there are many ways to engage with them on the appropriate type of dress w/o insisting that they purchase a specific style in a color selected by the kalah.

    #1773602

    Joseph
    Participant

    It should be discontinued because it isn’t tzniusdik.

    #1773674

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Who decides what is a “needless” chasuna expense.

    Everything more than a minyan some wine and an item worth a shava peruta is needless.

    You dont want to do it, great your a big boy dont do it.
    Others want to do it, why does that bother you? work on your own farginning others before coming up with silly takanos

    #1773650

    interjection
    Participant

    I think people wear gowns because they feel close to the kallah and because it’s fun.

    If people think it’s untznius, they should spend more time on their side of the mechitza. They could also avoid going to weddings if they can’t handle it.

    #1773525

    A chasunah is a special occasion for the entire family. I understand in trying to keep expenses down but gowns elevate the spirits of the female members of the family. Who should make the takanah? Have other takanos already been promulgated not been ignored?

    #1773527

    laskern
    Participant

    We have a place where you can borrow gowns for the wedding. The Dubner Magid compares the borrowing of the neshomo to this. We have to make sure that we return it without any smudges.

    #1774127

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I agree. Joseph should stop wearing a gown to weddings.

    #1774374

    klugeryid
    Participant

    in israel they dont

    #1774426

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Gowns are not the problem, single-use gowns are the problem. Just don’t insist on a new coordinated gown for every wedding.

    #1774440

    philosopher
    Participant

    RebYidd has a point …even lower priced gowns are expensive especially when there are a lot of girls in the family…and to use it for one night doesn’t make sense in my opinion. But when used even twice it makes much more sense to pay a few hundred dollars for a gown. The problem is that many girls and many women are embarassed wear the same dress twice.

    #1774546

    Joseph
    Participant

    The women can learn from the men who have no problem whatever wearing the same suit to five consecutive weddings. Or even every Shabbos.

    #1774561

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “The women can learn from the men who have no problem whatever wearing the same suit to five consecutive weddings. Or even every Shabbos…”

    And Reb Yosef forgot to mention that they can do so w/o even dry-cleaning that suit once meaning that after dancing at five hot summer weddings, that suit will be especially aromatic/פאַרשטונקען

    #1774647

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    I think people should mind their own business and stop telling others what to do ( assuming what they’re doing is not in violation of halacha)

    #1774657

    philosopher
    Participant

    anonymous Jew, certainly people would like to mind their own business and ideally should mind their own business. But life is not black and white. What do you do when you have teenage girls who don’t want to look and feel poor by using a wedding dress repeatedly? I know a parent has to be able to say no regardless but it still creates tension. And then there are women who put pressure on their husbands by buying these dresses at every simcha, especially when the dresses cost a few thousand dollars to rent, all because nobody wears a gown twice.

    There are people who do their own thing and don’t care what people think, myself included, I couldn’t care less what people do and think. But I’m sorry to say most people don’t want to do differently that what others do, it makes them feel uncomfortable. And that very often causes strain because most people don’t even have the money to cover these expensive and extraneous expenses.

    #1774693

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Philosopher
    Well said

    #1774728

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “….most people don’t want to do differently that what others do, it makes them feel uncomfortable..”
    If you are talking about affluent yidden who take their kids on to luxury hotels for the yom tovim, have no problem paying their yeshiva tuition and do their routine shopping at Pomegrante, than of course, we don’t c’v want such a baas melech to feel “uncomfortable” by wearing the same dress to both Suralah’s chassanah and then a few months later to Feige’s chassanah. However, for the larger percentage of the frum tzibur struggling to pay the bills from month to month, they would be much better off dealing with their daughter’s “discomfort” than digging themselves further into a financial hole or paying tuition late or whatever, in order to purchase a dress for a simcha that is unlikely to have future utillity.

    #1774737

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Philosopher, I hope no one who feels obligated to spend big bucks on one time gowns turns around and pleads poverty and requests yeshiva tuition reductions.

    #1774750

    devny
    Participant

    My chosson ransacked my wardrobe and burned all my clothes, and replaced them all with burkas. I’m soooo lucky!!! He’s such a special guy. IYH by all of you! Oh, and for our chasunah, he said women aren’t allowed to come anyway cuz they should be at home, so that avoids the whole problem of wedding gowns! Such a smart, amazing chosson I have 🙂

    #1774784

    Haimy
    Participant

    When I say Takanah I don’t mean forcing anyone how to act. I mean a communal recommendation to stop this unnecessary expense. Thousands of dollars are spent collectively each Chasunah on one time use gowns, do we really need it?

    #1774776

    philosopher
    Participant

    devny, I’m so jealous! I wish my husband would be more like yours.

    Chasaanim need to be taught how behave in this ultra-considerate and authoritive manner ( not a stira bichlal) that is rightfully their right. It would really help with stressful sholom bayis situations that so many people are experiencing these days.

    #1774777

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Our current society has a big problem. Everyone feel pressured to live above their means in order to feel normal.

    #1774840

    philosopher
    Participant

    Klugeryid, thanks.

    #1774825

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “do we really need it?”

    Again who is “we”

    You don’t need it apparently. Mazel tov

    Others do, work on farginning others.

    #1774848

    philosopher
    Participant

    Up until the last year or two I also had this mentality that everyone should do what they want if regarding simchos, if they can afford it. But then I realized how immoral behavior have seeped into the the secular society just by being exposed to this behavior on a constant basis, and it has been accepted as normal by a vast percentage of Americans. Because that’s how people are, what people are exposed to constantly affects their thought and behavior. This is with everything even with weddings.

    Takanos are not a new thing that evolved in the last few years. There were many takanos throughout the centuries, chasunah takanos, burial takanos ( every generation with their meshugassen…) and other simcha takanas. I believe it was the Vilna Gaon, or another big Rav in that time, who who made chasunah takanos.

    #1774869

    laughing
    Participant

    Why does anyone including the bride have to wear gowns. Besides being expensive, most gowns are downright ugly. Wear nice clothes. Save money.

    #1774874

    interjection
    Participant

    “When I say Takanah I don’t mean forcing anyone how to act. I mean a communal recommendation to stop this unnecessary expense. Thousands of dollars are spent collectively each Chasunah on one time use gowns, do we really need it?”

    I wore the same dress to two sisters weddings when they were two months apart. I also haven’t gotten rid of my other wedding dresses just in case I have a chance to wear them again.

    If the women in your family are unwilling to wear a wedding dress multiple times, that is a personal issue, not a communal one.

    #1774882

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Takanos are a band aid. Why do people respect conspicious consumption in the first place? Why not be proud of what you can do without?

    #1774881

    philosopher
    Participant

    RebYidd, exactly.

    #1774894

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RY
    +1
    well said

    #1774892

    philosopher
    Participant

    RebYidd, I said “exactly” for your post regarding people spending more than what they have, but not for your post saying takanos is a bandaid. I totally agree that people should understand that they can’t spend more than they have. But in real life and with most people it doesn’t work. As I said before, takonos are not new because this problem is not new.

    #1774902

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I didn’t say that band aids are not necessary.

    #1774903

    Joseph
    Participant

    laughing: I agree with you but the main problem is that it isn’t tznius for family members to go in a gown.

    #1774920

    laughing
    Participant

    Joseph I do not understand what tznius has to do with a gown?

    #1775071

    Phil
    Participant

    “Joseph I do not understand what tznius has to do with a gown”?

    Laughing,

    Your “handle” is so appropriate for asking this question. The resident YWN nasty troll just felt like spewing more fake halacha.

    #1775151

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reb Yosef paskend: “laughing: I agree with you but the main problem is that it isn’t tznius for family members to go in a gown…”
    I think our resident troll is suggesting that it would not be tziniusdik for the male members of the family to show up at a chassanah dressed as a woman. Probably not a good idea for getting more useage from dresses purchased for a prior Simcha that the women of the family refuse to wear again

    #1775154

    Mammele
    Participant

    Laughing and Phil: I believe Joseph is right on this one. At least if we’re discussing floor length gowns – and not for the Kallah. At the very least it’s Chukas Hagoy aka “ball gowns”. When was the last time anyone here attended a ball? (Rhetorical question only.) We women may love to feel like Cinderalla, and this “custom”may be very widespread, but it doesn’t make it Yiddish or right. Now we can discuss old wedding photos with dresses barely covering the knee…

    #1775164

    Phil
    Participant

    Mammele,

    I’ve attending plenty of weddings made by Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim where close family members wore gowns. Every woman should be free to choose whether to wear a gown to a family wedding without being judged, not by a woman and certainly not by a woman hater.

    #1775166

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil wouldn’t judge a woman wearing a miniskirt to a wedding either. He’d be admonishing everyone speaking out against pritzus that that it’s totally kosher to choose such a skirt.

    #1775173

    Haimy
    Participant

    Unless some sort of rabbinic directive is given it will be too embarrassing for people to stop getting gowns. It’s become too much of a given at every chasunah.

    #1775186

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I dont approve of his approach but nothing he has said supports or warrants your accusation. Defending long gowns cannot be compared to condoning miniskirts in halacha.

    #1775174

    Phil
    Participant

    Yusuf,

    So first you decide that gowns violate tznius and then you equate them to miniskirts. The religious dogma you’spew reads more like Sharia than Torah so you’re actually an Islamic extremist. That would explain your visceral hatred of females and why you get so excited at the thought of beating them up.

    #1775211

    philosopher
    Participant

    Mammele why are gowns not tzniusdig? 120 years ago everyone wore floor length dresses and it was tzniusdig and now it’s not? How is a longer length not tzniusdig? Short dresses and skirts, very and very elaborate wigs, today they wear almost down to waist… ,tight clothing, short sleeves not covering the elbows which I unfortunately see more and more, these are not tzniusdig. But covering the body more is not tzniusdig? I don’t agree with that.

    In addition, it covers shoes in insane looking colors and styles that some women choose to wear these days so that’s another plus. They can show off these $600 designer shoes in an everlasting picture so that they can be remembered forever.

    #1775215

    interjection
    Participant

    “Unless some sort of rabbinic directive is given it will be too embarrassing for people to stop getting gowns. It’s become too much of a given at every chasunah.”

    Rabbanim are not going to put takkanos on gowns for weddings. Way too many people have their livelihood in making/selling/renting these gowns that the rabbanim aren’t going to start restricting their use.

    I think women and girls like wearing gowns because they like wearing gowns. I don’t think it’s because they’re embarrassed to go without but rather because they are excited that they get to wear one. With all the restrictions on clothing, gowns are an opportunity for a woman to feel beautiful. If the parents can’t afford it, perhaps they can give the child a budget and tell the child to pay for the rest.

    #1775316

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mammele: Thank you for explaining it well.

    Would anyone not agree that if a woman showed up to work in an office or supermarket in a gown, that is a gross violation of tznius.

    #1775329

    philosopher
    Participant

    Joseph, wearing any lavish party dress and shoes at work or when shopping will cause heads to turn, it doesn’t particularly have to be gown length. Just like burquas cause people to stare. And they are gown length. Do you believe burquas are not tzniusdig?

    #1775332

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Joseph,
    If a man showed up to yeshiva in bathing trunks, is that not a violation of tzniyus ?
    I could think of plenty of reasons you could be against gowns, but this one falls short

    #1775333

    bk613
    Participant

    If her workplace and supermarket has a mechitza then while definitely a little strange, why would it be a “Gross violation of tznius.”

    #1775339

    bk613
    Participant

    Mammele’s point is actually ridiculous. If wearing a ball gown is chukas hagoyim why does she say its OK for the Kallah? Also, which part of a woman wanting to feel “like Cinderella” is inherently not “Yiddish or right.”

    #1775378

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Gowns and formal wear are on the decline in the secular world. Thinks of all the “Tux Rental” places that have gone bankrupt or disappeared. The global trend is towards less formality in L’vush and events that used to say black tie/white tie not longer do so or make it “discretionary’. A chassanah is a special event and warrant a gown for the kalah but WHY does the rest of the bridal party need to dress up and dilute the special status of the kalah.

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