February 25, 2016 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1139764dakParticipant
The current prayer for tzahal is harmful because we say that they should be successful in all their endeavors. Indirectly, it davens for soldiers who protect “Palestianian civilians” in times of war and soldiers throwing Jews out of their homes. The prayer should be amended.
link removedFebruary 25, 2016 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1139765american_yerushalmiParticipant
Those insisting that anything less than the prescribed Mi She’beirach evinces a “lack of hakaras hatov,” sound suspiciously like those who insist on “only my hechsher, my rav, my particular chumra(s) are acceptable. Otherwise known as: “my way or the highway.” Those urging for the Mi She’beirach sound as intolerant as some of the chareidim some of you criticize!
This argument, like so many others, is totally out of place. To get the chareidi masses “on board,” you are wasting your time and breath posting here or anywhere. What you really need to do is meet with the gedolei Torah that the chareidi tzibbur listens to, and PERSUADE THEM that you and your ideology are correct. When you do (not very likely, but you can try), the multitude of chareidim will follow their leaders rulings.
Otherwise, you will just have to apply the same explanations and excuses the MO/Dati Leumi folks use to answer various chareidi objections to some stuff that they do (or don’t do): you have your rav and your da’as Torah; I have my rav and my (actually my rav’s) da’as Torah. You can’t use that claim yourself while expecting a chareidi person to abandon the rulings of the gedolei Torah that he respects. Just as you claim you do regarding the rulings of your rabbis.February 25, 2016 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1139766aquestioningjewParticipant
Popa – I was arguing L’shitoscha.
You cannot argue that someone who doesn’t see Chazal as binding should show their gratitude through Chazals version of gratitude. I believe you. You believe it. They don’t.February 25, 2016 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1139767JosephParticipant
Simcha, why would you have less hakaras hatov, or make any less a mi sheberach, for someone who constantly risks his life for others running into a “non-living” mortal dangerous fire consuming everything it encounters than someone risking his life versus a “living” being posing a mortal danger to others?
Just as they made up a newfangled blessing for the soldiers they should similarly start a tradition to make a weekly mi sheberach for firefighters.
The lack thereof is quite telling of their motivations. The mi sheberach was designed as a politically motivated demonstration of support for Zionism that goes against mesorah and tradition regarding instituting new “traditions”.February 25, 2016 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1139768
American Yerushalmi, first you have to persuade them that they should not worry about the extremist in their camp. This is probably much more difficult as Rav Elaishiv (!) was stoned for reaching an agreement with the government on moving graves.February 25, 2016 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1139769
Joseph- I guess we agree to disagree, but I think it is pretty clear that it is far more dangerous (physically, psychologically, and emotionally) to be a soldier than a firefighter. Aside from hard numbers which would back this up, it is much easier to create precautions against something dangerous that doesn’t think or feel and who’s activities are relatively predictable. If you are getting a bunch of bullets shot at your head, the control factor diminishes significantly, to put it mildly.
But, again, that is irrelevant. We owe hakaras hatov to both soldiers and firefighters. A mi sheberach exists for soldiers and not for firefighters. Why? I don’t think it matters. It’s the reality. Was the mi sheberach started for political reasons so that Zionism can be injected into tefilah under the guise of hakaras hatov? Possibly, but I don’t think it matters. Now it’s said by many people in a genuine fashion, which is a beautiful thing. And it’s also not said by many people which is also fine. I personally understand both sides (even though I side more with one). But you have to understand that this is not only a logical issue, but a tremendously emotional one as well. Your patronizing attitude towards those who say it is (in my opinion) a bit inappropriate (as is the patronizing attitude of posters who assume that those who don’t say the tefilah lack hakaras hatov).February 25, 2016 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1139770
Was the mi sheberach started for political reasons so that Zionism can be injected into tefilah under the guise of hakaras hatov? Possibly, but I don’t think it matters.
Of course it matters. The OP wants my shul/yeshiva to start saying it.February 25, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1139771
DY- It doesn’t matter. If you found out that the composition of the tefilah was in fact a genuine prayer to protect those soldiers who fight for us without ulterior motives, would that change your opinion? I doubt it. You oppose it because it practically has Zionist connotations today. It’s not the reason why most people say it. And it may or may not be the reason why it was started. But the connection between a prayer for Israeli soldiers and Zionsim is quite obvious and the reason why most in the Charedi community don’t say it.
Why it was started doesn’t practically matter- those who don’t say it, won’t say it regardless of the motivations of its authors… and those who say it will continue to say it regardless of the motivations of its authors.February 25, 2016 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1139772
Fine, so apply my response to your earlier sentence, A mi sheberach exists for soldiers and not for firefighters. Why? I don’t think it matters.
It’s existence is not for the welfare of the soldiers; it exists as a political statement. Haga atzm’cha; if there were as many firefighters in danger as soldiers (your distinction regarding the source of danger is incomprehensible to me), would the tefillah l’firefighters be instituted? Of course not. They we would be (as they and the soldiers are) included in existing tefillos.
As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t exist; we don’t say it in my shul. So, let’s start from square one. Should we compose and say every Shabbos a tefillah for soldiers for no political reason? The clear answer is no, but the OP says that our not saying it shows poor middos.February 25, 2016 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1139773gavra_at_workParticipant
simcha613 – What DY is saying is that there is a reason why it exists.
Would you be happy is in the Mishebairach L’Cholim, the words “Kol Yoshvei Eretz Yisroel” were added, which (by definition) includes Chayalei Tzahal, as well as MADA, Hatzaloh in EY, ZAKA, etc.?February 25, 2016 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1139774
DY- I don’t know if that’s the case- that it’s clear the tefilah is for political reasons. I have heard that Rabbonim in the Charedi communities compose special tefilos during times of war like during Cast Lead or the second Lebanon War. Even though there are firefighters in constant danger, there is room for extra tefilos when facing an enemy during times of war. There is a unique danger present there that doesn’t exist in other dangerous times. It could be that the tefilah was composed because a soldier is in a constant state of war. He is constantly in this unique danger to prevent all of us from being in that unique danger. I can understand why people separate soldiers from other dangerous occupations.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s poor midos not to say it. I understand why you wouldn’t differentiate one dangerous occupation from another. But I don’t automatically assume that the tefilah was composed for political motivations, and I don’t really care if it was. And I also understand why some might consider a soldier to be in a unique situation of danger.February 25, 2016 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1139775
I don’t know if that’s the case- that it’s clear the tefilah is for political reasons.
So we disagree.
I have heard that Rabbonim in the Charedi communities compose special tefilos during times of war like during Cast Lead or the second Lebanon War.
Where I daven, we say extra Tehillim followed by Acheinu, not some newly composed tefillah.February 25, 2016 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1139776
And I have seen shuls that do compose special tefilos in special situations, which I assume (or hope) was the motivations for those who composed the tefilah for the soldiers and I know it’s the motivation for those who say it. Eilu va’eilu divrei Elokim chayim. There is nothing wrong with composing new tefilos. And there is nothing wrong with saying a tefilah that was politically motivated when composed. It is obviously not your Rav’s minhag. It is obviously the minhag of other Rabbonim.February 26, 2016 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1139777
” Was the mi sheberach started for political reasons so that Zionism can be injected into tefilah under the guise of hakaras hatov? Possibly, but I don’t think it matters.”
“Now it’s said by many people in a genuine fashion, which is a beautiful thing… Your patronizing attitude towards those who say it is (in my opinion) a bit inappropriate (as is the patronizing attitude of posters who assume that those who don’t say the tefilah lack hakaras hatov). “
Are they somehow wrong??
You expect others to change their tradition based on some peoples’ agendae or johnny-come-lately naivete?
“There is nothing wrong with composing new tefilos. “
Wonderful .Please give your email.
There are endless possibilities
And there is nothing wrong with saying a tefilah that was politically motivated when composed.
Really ?!?!February 26, 2016 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1139778
Singing the praises of the IDF and the Defense apparatus for protecting the jewish people is akin to praising of hard snow (e.g. to build an igloo) for saving one from the cold (cf. Chazon Ish to ben Gurion).
What about when one is obligated to serve other governments such as frum yekkes who serve in the Swiss army?
p.p.s. Excerpt from Ruth Blau, famous convert to Judaism, in her autobiography Trail to Truth.
Chapter titled My Disenchantment with Religious ZionismFebruary 26, 2016 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1139779Sam2Participant
IITFT: You think there is something wrong with composing new Tefillos? What’s wrong with it? And source please?February 27, 2016 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1139780
Simcha, do you say Kabbalat Shabbat? Anyway, misheberachs are nothing new.
Time, Rav Ovadia said that without the IDF the yeshivot would not exist. I consider him to be much more of an authority on Judaism than Ruth Blau. I certainly consider Rav Kook and his son Rav Tzvi Yehuda to be more authoritative and they both said that nationalism and military prowess are integral parts of Judaism. The Tanach, in fact, praises military prowess in several places.The fact that they also exist among gentiles does not make a difference. There are gentiles who say “Thank Gd” and even a grace after meals and a prayer before going to sleep. Does that mean that we should not?February 29, 2016 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1139781
Eh ,two years ago you chose to translate it somewhat differently..
However,since you also invented this one:
It is a mitzva d’Oraita to serve in the IDF (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot” Mitzva 4, Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 2:23 and Hilchot Melachim 7:4, Mishpat Cohen 143, Tzitz Eliezer 13:100)
Should we continue or call it a day? 😉March 1, 2016 5:52 am at 5:52 am #1139782
Truth (in Russian “Pravda” – they used to say that there is no pravda in “Izvestia” [news] as no izvestia in “Pravda”], as Casey Stengel said “You can look it up”.
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