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December 11, 2014 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #614441Patur Aval AssurParticipant
I was reading an old thread, and some of Sam’s posts gave me a jolt of hana’ah.
December 11, 2014 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1062179☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThank you for sharing.
December 11, 2014 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1062181Sam2ParticipantCare to share with thread and which posts?
December 12, 2014 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1062182Patur Aval AssurParticipantSure. I was waiting until you asked so that you can’t get upset at me if you don’t like what you said.
December 12, 2014 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1062183Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe first three are from the thread I was reading. I’m not quoting the interspersed remarks.
You should just stick with the Ta’anah that the Rambam is a relatively minority opinion and that later authorities have mostly rejected his Derech. Saying that he did retract and/or would retract if he knew Kaballah is very Dachuk at best and borders on insulting to the Rambam’s position. I don’t know who (if anyone) says that the Moreh is meant to be learned Al Pi Sod but, to be frank, [I’m not going to finish this sentence, but insert harsh phrase here].
I didn’t say that it is reliable to hold like the Rambam in this, only that claiming that the Rambam didn’t say what he said is, well, ridiculous. The Rambam was never Chozer. It just didn’t happen. To think that the most important Chazarah in history could have happened and no one knew for 700 years is a joke. Someone tricked the Chidah. I do not know what the Radziner said, but once again, saying that the Rambam wrote Al Pi Sod is just wrong. Laughably so. To say that is an insult to the Rambam and what he held. Until you show me the Radziner inside, I won’t believe he said that. And if he did, well, then I’m sure the Rambam gave him a good correction in Yeshivah Shel Ma’alah.
The “Chazarah” never happened. The Rambam (who wrote until the end of his life) and none of his correspondents nor his son mention it anywhere. So either the Chida was wrong or was mislead. I chose to go with the latter. If you want to claim the former, that’s on you.
And my personal favorite (not from the same thread):
I would just like to point out that you are making a gross insult against Torah learning. “The RIshonim employ Lashon that to us is misleading.”??!! That’s a joke. Why ever learn? It should be Assur to open a Rishon by your logic unless you are a Gadol, because you know that you will potentially distort the Torah to the opposite of what it means. It’s ridiculous. It’s absurd. Sit down and learn the Rishonim. They are very clear in what they say. And we have Achronim to point out when they are potentially apparently being Soseir themselves and what the potential reasons for that are. But the RIshonim mean the opposite of what they say? It’s a joke. Go invent your own Torah and claim that’s what a Rishon really means because, after all, we can’t know what it means. (Unless we’re a “Gadol” and have “Da’as Torah”. But how could we get that in the first place if we misunderstood all the Rishonim until we achieved that point.) Honestly, you have nothing to add to this discussion. Say you don’t know enough to discuss this Sugya. That’s fine. But don’t go around throwing made-up axioms into a Sugya that do nothing but distort actual Talmud Torah.
December 12, 2014 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1062184Jewish ThinkerParticipantWhich qoute?
December 12, 2014 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1062185Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
If you want to make it back into my report card, try saying something like my favorite Sam quote above.
December 12, 2014 4:18 am at 4:18 am #1062186☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI would just like to point out that you are making a gross insult against Torah learning. “The RIshonim employ Lashon that to us is misleading.”??!! That’s a joke. Why ever learn? It should be Assur to open a Rishon by your logic unless you are a Gadol, because you know that you will potentially distort the Torah to the opposite of what it means. It’s ridiculous. It’s absurd. Sit down and learn the Rishonim. They are very clear in what they say. And we have Achronim to point out when they are potentially apparently being Soseir themselves and what the potential reasons for that are. But the RIshonim mean the opposite of what they say? It’s a joke. Go invent your own Torah and claim that’s what a Rishon really means because, after all, we can’t know what it means. (Unless we’re a “Gadol” and have “Da’as Torah”. But how could we get that in the first place if we misunderstood all the Rishonim until we achieved that point.) Honestly, you have nothing to add to this discussion. Say you don’t know enough to discuss this Sugya. That’s fine. But don’t go around throwing made-up axioms into a Sugya that do nothing but distort actual Talmud Torah.
December 12, 2014 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1062187Patur Aval AssurParticipantNever used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean
them DaasYochid! You need to really want to cause me pain – to enjoy it – righteous anger won’t hurt me for long.
December 12, 2014 6:33 am at 6:33 am #1062188Sam2ParticipantDY: I’m pretty sure your report card is going to receive a very harsh note for plagiarism. You didn’t even bother to correct my typos. (Es Chata’ai Anochai Mazkir Hayom.)
December 12, 2014 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #1062190old manParticipantSam, “ani”, not “anochi”
December 12, 2014 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1062191☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantWhat a coincidence- I was even mechaven to the typos!
Funny thing is, in four years from now, someone is going to vaguely remember such a quote, search for it, and think it was me.
December 12, 2014 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1062192Patur Aval AssurParticipantIs the “Chata’ai” the typos, or the content?
December 13, 2014 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1062193Sam2ParticipantThe typos.
December 14, 2014 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1062194Patur Aval AssurParticipantYou had me scared there for a moment.
March 2, 2015 6:46 am at 6:46 am #1062195Patur Aval AssurParticipantjust my happence said almost the exact same thing as Sam2:
I really don’t get the whole “the Rambam was chozer at the end of his life” thing. So he was vehemntly angainst something all his life, wrote copious amounts in his seforim about why he didn’t hold of it, and then was suddenly chozer and never told anyone about it? He never wrote his retraction? I mean that’s a pretty big chazoro and he never actually publicized it?! There is no contemporary evidence that he was chozer, neither from him nor even from someone who was simply around at the time. Surely a chazoro as big as that would have got some sort of mention somewhere. It would be like one of the Satmar Rebbes turning round and becoming a tzioni, not going to pass without comment… And yet you would have me believe that it did… Hmmmm…
And:
And the mekor of the “echod mimeforshei haRamban” is? I didn’t think you were making it up – I had heard the claim long before I’d heard of the CR. What I was saying is that I find it extrememly hard to believe historically. Could you please answer me how when the Rambam, the famous rationalist who dismissed much of the supernatural as non-existent, suddenly turned around completely and said that he now did in fact believe in it absolutely no-one batted an eyelid. Nobody even took the time to write a letter to their acquaintance saying “have you heard the news?”?! How is there not a single note of this momentous chazoro?
So now the question is did Sam2 plagiarize just my hapence or did just my hapence plagiarize Sam2?
Later in the same thread as the quote from just my happence, Sam2 said
You’re being ridiculous. The “Chazarah” never happened. If such a thing happened everyone would know. I can’t find a big Rabbi who gets up tomorrow and says that the Satmer Rov, Brisker Rav, etc. all were Chozer on Zionism right before they died. It is a meaningless statement. It is unverifiable and pointless. You can’t make unverifiable statements hundreds of years after the fact and expect to be believed. The Maharam Al Ashkar either was misinformed or (more likely) tore the Sefer he was responding to to shreds (look at what he writes there, it’s the most Charif T’shuvah I’ve ever seen from any Rishon) and pulled out all the stops, even if he had to cite an apocryphal and untrue legend to do it.
The plot thickens…
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