February 9, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #738096metrodriverMember
Always Here; I could empathize with the sad story about your husband slipping on ice one year ago and again this year. Because it happened to me. But, I didn’t need ice to hurt my body and get black and blue marks and excruciating pain. In my case, the first part of Hashem’s message to me happened before Pesach when I skidded off a wet loading dock with one foot and the rest of my body hitting the lift gate of a truck. (The exact circumstances I am too embarrassed to tell.) I could not sit or stand. I could only sleep turned completely on one side. When that pain almost subsided, I tripped and fell inside the bus that I drive. On the way to the floor, I hit the back of a seat with my left arm, injuring the muscle and paralyzing my left arm. For months, I had a black and blue mark.
Now let me go off on a humorous tangent, addressed to “Zahavasdad”. You should have used your cell phone to call your Rav, asking a Sheilah if that particular property owner was allowed to shovel the snow on Shabbos. (Since in your view it is 100% allowed.) Or you should have called a cab to take you home. Or to the emergency room.February 9, 2011 2:07 am at 2:07 am #738097
Actually I took Hatzolah to the ERFebruary 9, 2011 2:14 am at 2:14 am #738098
wow, metrodriver!~ hope these horrible, painful incidences are now behind you! stay safe!!February 9, 2011 2:36 am at 2:36 am #738099Mayan_DvashParticipant
zahavasdad, shoveling snow is deoraisah, you don’t need to go to shul. I cannot have to be mechalel shabbos for your f(k)rumkeit. Pregnant women are told to stay home and not go to shul, so they can complete the fast — deoraisah of fasting is not nidchah just so she can go to shul.
;February 9, 2011 2:43 am at 2:43 am #738100metrodriverMember
Always Here; Thank you. But what these painful events taught me is, that everything that happens to a person is pre-ordained m’Shamayim. And if it happens (ch”v) we have to accept it and make the best of the situation. B”H, in my case, I didn’t miss out even one day of work or going to Shul. But, in the case of a property owner who doesn’t shovel the snow and put salt or other de-icing chemicals on the sidewalk the first chance he gets, is liable “Min Hatorah”, and if someone is injured and sues, they deserve to pay every last penny.February 9, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #738101
1. absolutely! 2. B’H you didn’t miss work or shul… that’s pretty incredible considering what happened. 3. agreeFebruary 9, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #738102chanabMember
have you considered physical therapy or aqua aerobics for the pain?
Where I live a lot of people hire snow removal companies who come whenever it snows (Shabbos included), maybe you should look into that.
Refuah Shelaima!February 9, 2011 3:21 am at 3:21 am #738103
I am not sure if I will need therapy. Id like to avoid it if possible. I am hoping it will heal itself. Although alot of Motrin is needed now.
Nor do I want to sue the property owner. They are sorry for what happend . Luckily I have medical insurance and that will pay for most of my medical bills (I am only responsible for co-pays). If I did not have insurance I am sure the ER visit would have been a couple of thousand dollars.
I do think the property owner should give a donation to Hatzolah since I needed to use them to go to the ER and I know Hatzolah calls really cost a minimum of $200-$300 eachFebruary 9, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #738104Sender AvMember
mods, how in the world can you let comments like John Dohs through? They are disgusting, insulting, and uncalled for. I do not understand why you close some perfectly innocent threads yet allow such posts to go through,(and this is a ridiculous thread)February 9, 2011 3:26 am at 3:26 am #738105Sender AvMember
I also question John Doh’s identity due to his lack of middos in addressing others in this forum.February 9, 2011 3:40 am at 3:40 am #738106aries2756Participant
I try to stay out of halachic discussions but I would like to ask Zehavadad two questions. Firstly, refuah sheleimah secondly, I am not going to put fault because it is shared and no one to blame.
Question #1: If you could go back and redo that they what would you do differently?
Question #2: If it is a greater sakana’s nefesh NOT to shovel snow on Shabbos than it is a chilul Shabbos don’t you think there would be announcements and posters instructing people on this issue. Don’t you think that every Rav in EVERY shul and even in yeshiva would be discussing it and making sure their point hit home to make sure the snow is shoveled even on Shabbos?
Growing up in BP under the laws of NYC, we all knew that we had to get out the second Shabbos was over and clean up because we had a grace period on Shabbos. WE were not ticketed because WE were not permitted to shovel snow and the city could not force us to go against our religion, but the second Shabbos was over if we weren’t out there doing the right thing we would get ticketed and quickly.February 9, 2011 4:33 am at 4:33 am #738107Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
Look, its a very possible scenario where a person can look in front of his property on shabbos and see that melted snow or standing water (due to poor drainage) has frozen solid overnight (like tonight). Or that it has snowed overnight or snow has been plowed onto the walk in front of his house. I think its a valid question to ask that if a bor has found its way onto your property, can you remedy it on shabbos. There is no question in my mind that it is a clear and present danger to the passersby. Falls on ice and snow can be devastating. With injuries ranging from bruised soft tissue (and egos) to broken bones, to brain hemorrhage. It is not a sakana that can be taken lightly. I just don’t know if it is docheh shabbos. I am ever so vigilant with clearing snow and ice from in front of my property. So much so that I will heavily salt standing water to prevent freezing overnight.February 9, 2011 4:51 am at 4:51 am #738108iyhbyuMember
Firstly, like I said if it fell before shabbos, than you should’ve shoveled before shabbos. I have no problem with the OP berating people for not shoveling there snow before shabbos.
So there is muktza, It could be a problem of sosser which I forgot to mention, if the snow is packed together and forms a structure, and it could be a problem of boneh, because you have to put it down somewhere.
As for carrying, chatzi shiur is assur mdrabanon! Just because it’s not a mideorisah daled amos doesn’t mean it’s mutar.
Also I forgot to mention Tircha and uvdin dechol, which is nothing to be sneezed at.
In all likelihood you won’t be over a deorisah but numerous dirabonons
nobody is saying muktza is more important than sakana, It’s that you are the one making it a sakana by going out. If you didn’t go out,the snow would not have walked over and tripped you. and like a previous poster said, if you didn’t realize it was a sakana for you to walk how are you blaming the owner?February 9, 2011 4:59 am at 4:59 am #738109real-briskerMember
Sender Av – I think Its absolutely rediculous that the allow such posts thru. I dont see it any different then using english curse words.February 9, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #738110real-briskerMember
zahavasdad – Where are you getting your sources that it costs hatzolah $200 – $300 per call?February 9, 2011 5:39 am at 5:39 am #738111charliehallParticipant
I can’t understand why snow would be muktzah: It is edible! How can any food item that can be eaten on Shabat be muktzah?February 9, 2011 5:53 am at 5:53 am #738112iyhbyuMember
1) if it fell on shabbos it is muktzah because of nolad
2) If I recall, R’ Moshe says it technically is edible but practically it isn’t eaten.February 9, 2011 6:04 am at 6:04 am #738113charliehallParticipant
The snow existed prior to Shabat, in the clouds, in the form of water vapor and/or ice crystals.
Maybe R’Moshe didn’t eat snow, but I love it! It goes great with fruit juice.February 9, 2011 6:26 am at 6:26 am #738114Josh31Participant
My best understanding is that public hazards should be removed on Shabbos as long as a real biblical violation of one of the 39 categories does not occur.
Problem with shoveling snow is that it is a hazardous activity for many. The Weather Service in Chicago warned that in a previous snowstorm tens of people died from heart attacks shoveling snow.February 9, 2011 6:49 am at 6:49 am #738115☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The snow existed prior to Shabat, in the clouds, in the form of water vapor and/or ice crystals.
I’m not a scientist; I believe you are, so correct me if I’m wrong – since the creation of the world, there is no new matter, only restructuring. Obviously, then, nolad does not mean yesh meiayin, only some form of restructuring of matter.February 9, 2011 10:48 am at 10:48 am #738116amichaiParticipant
zahavasdad-you should have a refua shlaima. I’m really trying to understand you. In all the years we lived in the states ,in a place with snow flurries, never once do I remember that my father would even think of shoveling the snow on shabbos,( and he always made sure to have the walkway cleared.)If it looks nasty outside, then it’s better to stay inside.February 9, 2011 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #738118
Maybe in Brooklyn its different, but here every year Hatzolah has a fundrasing campaign and they say their budget is about $5 Million dollars and each call they answer costs about $200-$300
Now some calls cost more than others like if they have to use a defibulator and my call probably cost less and all they had to do was carry me to the ambulance , drive to the hospital and give me a blanket (They dont re-use blankets)
It does seem many here do not understand what the ice that I fell on looked like. It did not look like a Sakana until you actually stepped on it. It looked like snow but was really packed ice. When people constantly step on snow and its not removed, it becomes ice, but it looks like snow.
The owner has admitted it was his fault, He told me his was sorry and should have done better.February 9, 2011 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #738119mamashtakahMember
zahavasdad, have you called or spoken to your Rav yet to ask him about shoveling snow on Shabbat? Please let us know what he says.February 9, 2011 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #738121
zahavasdad~ refuah sheleima b’karov!
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