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There is a constant bashing of MO here how they’re not doing things right
Now I want to turn the tables
Why is it that yeshivaleit (and it goes to the Kollel and rabbeim level) are shtultzy? Doesn’t it say תלמידי חכמים מרבה שלום בעולם?
And don’t say that it’s to distance themselves from bad influences of the “not as frum” because you see it in the same Yeshiva/beis medrash where one grade doesn’t associate at all with a different grade?
I would love to hear the defenses
It’s a remnant holdover from prewar Europe, when bnei Torah were routinely scorned and belittled. Things take a very long time to adjust in our culture
Maybe if u tell us what shtultz means, we could help u
When you’re shteiging, you feel good about yourself. You can feel good about yourself while being respectful of others. Remember it was the modern who were bashing yeshivaleit first.
Coffee, comparing the yeshiva worlds shtultz issues to modern orthodoxy is like comparing a blood test with an amputation.
MO is rife with institutionalized sin and heresy.
Gemora has a lot of conditions that describe Talmidei Chachamim, such as “merabim shalom b’olam”.
If you dismiss these issues just because other people are worse or “they started first”, seems like you are treating “yeshiva” as just “my team”, which kind of misses the point. Rav Salanter was holding the opposite: if a professor in Paris is spouting apikorosus, it means we in the yeshiva are doing something wrong.
Shimon > remnant holdover from prewar Europe,
R Berel Wein similarly (but with slightly different emphasis) traces the way non-religious parties relate to datiim in Israel to the history of Jews under Russia, where Russian government forced kahal to be in charge of selecting who will be drafted into Russian army, leading to corruption of the kahal, bribery, oppression of orphans, leading to the strife and alienation between leaders of Jewish community and the “masses”.
What is a “remnant holdover”? If I eat a “remnant holdover” must i use “mayim achronim vasser” even if I didn’t have to wash netilas yadayim before eating?
I went to a yeshiva that did not have shtultz but I had a rebbe who had gone to a yeshiva with shtultz. We asked him once to explain it. He went thru it (a little lengthy to post here) and at the end of it he said that if a 9th grader would come to ask a 12th grader a question in learning or in hashkofah, the 12th grader would answer him warmly and cordially, being friendly. If he would come over to shmuz with him, he would “shtultz him out.” This made the 9th graders realize that the 12th graders are not there to be their friend but to help them out, to help them grow and looking out for them.
The 12th graders are the inmates doing the guards work?
Not sure what the OP means by shtultz, but if it means being proud of our Yiddishkeit and observing the Torah (the translation of the Yiddish “shtultz”) – this is one of the important idea, especially in America, of Geon Yaakov.
It’s known that one of the greatest nisyonos of our post holocaust America is obeying the first seif of shulchan aruch:
אל יבוש מפני המעליגיםThis is obviously not the idea of gaava which means being proud of YOURSELF, rather being proud of the Torah that we represent.
Dear Coffee,
Now that an intelligent way to open this topic! Here is my take: It’s not of feature of long term learners. For the overwhelming majority, they either drop the shtultz or the learning. It’s adolescent behavior. The guys in yeshiva who are really into the shtultz thing, end up needing to make bank to justify their existence.
My father was in mesivta in the 70s. He would frequently be told off by the rosh yeshiva fir shmuzing with beis medrash bachurim. I actually understand that very well. That isn’t shtoltz, it’s a boundary that has a clear purpose. Not a discussion for this thread, but I don’t think the message has any impact at all in this generation of no boundaries
Thanks to the Coffee Room, I learned yeshivish terms like “Harry” and “Hot Chanie.” Today I learned a new word!
takah: You didn’t learn the term HC in the CR. You got that from the blogs that are anti-YW.
I’m just shocked that you could deny that this is a(n infrequent) term on TYW.
N0m: If that’s addressed to me, that term was only used once in the history of the CR before this thread. And that once was 13 years ago.
Yeshivaguy > if a 9th grader would come to ask a 12th grader a question in learning or in hashkofah, the 12th grader would answer him warmly and cordially, being friendly.
I believe this is how Volozhin and maybe other early yeshovos operated, with Rabonim running major shiurim and after that older students helping younger ones. They did not have a full staff of babysitters.
Coffee- He actually said that they were roommates with the older graders but at the same time, there was a boundary called shtultz (As I wrote, I was in a yeshiva that did not have shtultz and therefore I didn’t have this derech. This is how he explained that derech)
Always-My rebbe attended a very prestigious modern day yeshiva.shtultz in mesivtos is a very important thing. ninth grader are quite simply, signifigantly mor immature, when they come in, than anyone else in the bais medrash.shtultz helps them recognize that, and in shtultzy yeshivos, they generally normal out by chanukah time. Anyone who has a problem with shtultz doesnt chap the matzav. and as for not being goires the mo people, this is absolutely legitimate, as they dont value the torah as muchas they should, and can be real influences
Great question.
Answer: it’s a community of very similar, judgemental people , who therefore become very guarded and –shall we say,–insecure.CA: The kehila in Klal Yisroel that is the most anti-“shtultz”is Satmar.
Try coming to a Friday night minyan (with or without children) for the first time, where no one knows you, in any Satmar Shul dressed in the most opposite of Chasidish clothing (or Litvish, MO, or Chasidish if you want), and you probably won’t receive less than 10 invitations to come home with someone for the Shabbos seuda.
Dear Ujm,
At least twice. And as recently as ten years and two and a half months ago.
How could you have missed that?
Tsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssk
Dear Coffee,
I agree. It’s for those that are afraid of strangers and different ways of thinking. It’s very important to a lot of eighteen year-olds to have a solution when they don’t have a fast answer for a fourteen year-old. Some people are still that way when they are thirty five. But I doubt anyone can survive in a yeshiva for twenty years with a shtultzy attitude.
YG > -My rebbe attended a very prestigious modern day yeshiva.
I was not doubting your rebbe’s education, just bringing good sources to support the practice. As R Avigdor Miller writes: European yeshivas had less people than now, but better education
“Great question.
Answer: it’s a community….judgemental people……shall we say,–insecure.”
it is not coming from insecurity. if a bunch of modern orthodox people just show up in a yeshivish shul, it is one hundred percent warranted that people wouldnt want to start socializing with them.
i know this may be politically incorrect, but the truth is that they just value our religion less.“I went to be מנחם אבל someone in Boro Park and afterwards went to a restaurant to eat so when I got my order over there I went to a table to sit down, then a few minutes later a chosid (not sure what type, I didn’t ask him) sits down opposite me (with his food) so I commented that שנים שישבו and now we were יוצא (because that is a הלכה) and he stared at me with this shtultzy stare and then kept on eating”
Always a great move-judge satmar based off one random chosid, who didnt know how to respond when you made a corny commentCA: Is your reply to me supposed to be a rejoinder to my point?
> they just value our religion less.
not sure I am reading this right, given unclear “we” and “they”, but whatever group it is – this “value our religion less” shows unusual capability of reading people’s hearts and minds. Are you counting value by money spent on lulav? yeshiva? by money not earned by not working productively? by spending more effort on learning? on chesed? on mesiras nefesh confronting sonei yisroel? so many factors and you figured out all of them just by looking at someone’s jacket? Hope I am misreading this.
“Kaltlitvak,
But I’m dressed yeshivish”
Im sorry i dont understand what you are trying to say
quite honestly, aaq, i think almost all of those are great examples, except for confronting sonei yisroel.
it is a fact. i wasnt trying to trigger anyone, and i wasnt judging anyone. You may think i am being superficial, but if you honestly think about it yourself, do you really hold mo in the same regard as normal frum people? They are not necessarily doing anything wrong, however, the standards of frumkeit that mo adheres to is signifigintly less than that of the more yeshivish community. based on that, i said that it is justified for yeshivish people not to want to interact with mo.
I will admit that my use of “they value our religion less” in retrospect, sounds much more inflammatory than i intended. I apologize@ujm
Completely agree with your comment about being invited home for Shabbos meal.
This Litvish misnagid wears a dark blue suit, not black (as I’ve posted many times: in my business black is reserved for judges).
Saying Kaddish for Mrs. CTL this year has taken be to many different minyanim. I often stay in our house in Brooklyn and enjoy visiting new to me shuls.
Always invitations in Satmar, Bobov and Chabad.
If I go into a Litvish or MO minyan after the first Kaddish someone will inquire for whom I am saying Kaddish. As soon as I say my wife I hear whispering. Then the invitations arrive, typically for someone with an unmarried 40+ daughter working as an accountant, paralegal or attorney.
The Chasidim give real Hachnosses Orchim invitations, the others see me as a pigeonkaltlitvak> standards of frumkeit that mo adheres to is signifigintly less than that of the more yeshivish community.
Thanks for explaining yourself. Now I see where you are coming from. I don;t frankly understand this desire to measure standards and how do you define communities. There are standards that Torah and halakha defines, and after you pass that threshold, there are a lot of options and trade-offs. “Increasing standards”, often referred as chumros, is not an obviously good thing. The one with more nedorim is not necessarily the winner. Hanging around a yeshiva town without a job is not necessarily better than working as a doctor and learning at night. Being meikel in work environment is not worse than being meikel in taking welfare funds from non-Jews, or even Jews. I may be throwing back similarly inflammatory and stereotypical positions – not in order to rehash them, but just to show that this is not how you relate to people.
Anecdotally: I was telling an anecdote to a “yeshivish” hevrusa about an event that once happened with me when someone interested in Jews observed me for some time at the Army training polygon far from any Jewish presence. So, my hevrusah reacted – oh, you are wearing a kippah when in such places!? Not that there would be something wrong with not wearing it, but I first thought that this is his assumptions about me and Jews in work environment in general, but then I thought maybe this is how he thinks he would have behaved (based on the stories he was raised on), and he stays within 4 amos to save himself from the danger.
CTL, I am with you on the suits. Gemora suggests dressing in black when going away to hide avonot …
You don’t have to look this way at inappropriate invites. Maybe chasidim do not see you as a potential chatan based on your suit, while the others care enough to ask. They may not know that you are not at that page and maybe they could use better approaches, of course. A bigger problem is when nobody asks or invites at all.
@AAQ
Despite your name, sometimes not being asked is a relief.CTL, I admit that this is a case where questions are not appropriate .. or maybe inappropriate questions are inappropriate. I am for AAQ, not for AAAQ – always ask any questions.
Dear Kalt,
“value our religion less”
The yeshiva velt has lost the value of it’s own religion. The stay in yeshiva and learn value has decreased dramatically especially within the yeshiva itself. A middle aged MO father, who remembers the sincerity of the yeshiva in his day, scoffs at the yeshiva bachur who can’t find the beis medrash for most of bein hazmanim.
CTL,
could this simply be simply a drift of the titles? When we say “Rabbi” Akiva, this is not necessarily same semicha as your local Rabbi, right? Same, the word “yeshiva” changed with times when everyone in the community goes there. On one hand, this obviously raises general level of the community, on the other – level of the average “yeshiva” now caters to IQ 80 to 120, not the 120-160 as the early ones perhaps did. You can see the same with colleges, that drifted from a philosophical exercise to a remedial high school with some skill training and diversity mixed in, while at the same time raising general knowledge level of the population.
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