Shuls Closed While Restaurants Opened?!

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  • #1839936
    Joseph
    Participant

    Shuls, Butei Medrashim and Yeshivos are closing down while restaurants are remaining open? What on earth is the meaning of this.

    #1840078
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Restaurants are allowed to be open for takeout only. The idea is to prevent gathering of people

    #1840080
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Total insanity and out of control.

    Our Torah and tefillos are what keep the world up and running. The gedolei Hador said not to shut down the schools.

    #1840081

    Depends where you are. Illinois and Ohio closing bars and restaurants.

    #1840082
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    That religious leaders are acting responsibly in the interest of protecting the public’s health, safety, and welfare?

    #1840089
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    You see Joseph
    Klal yisroel loves Hashem Batei medrash and shuls are packed to the brim with people on top of ech other. This is obviously a beautiful thing.
    Unfortunately when there is a disease spreading this is a bad thing.

    On the other hand Klal yisorel has no inteest in restaraunts, these places are always desolate , פיסט און ליידיג so there is no reason to close them .

    Though, at any rate as far as I’m aware restaurants (at least in my neck of the woods) are open for takeout only. they ARE closed for dining, Is this not the case where you live?

    #1840165
    Joseph
    Participant

    There were places where shuls were closed while the local kosher restaurants were open for eat-in business.

    #1840196
    adar29
    Participant

    There was a yid that knowing he was infected and sick flew from jfk to palm beach exposing everyone in the plane and then went to shul to daven. A real chacham. Now the whole shul, including the beia midrash is closed.

    #1840173
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    People need to have access to take out foods which is what is happening in EY and increasingly in the U.S. I’m amazed at how many younger millennials literally have no food at home and are clueless as to how to prepare their own meals. Most of the large restaurants, bars and entertainment venues are essentially closed for sit-down service or will do so in the next few days. There is much less risk of a few people lining in a restaurant at a time versus dozens or hundreds sitting closely together in shuls and batei medrashinm

    #1840191
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Typical shul: many unrelated people walking around, touching things, sharing things, talking to each other. Rarely are surfaces sanitized. Spreading viruses (potentially)

    Typical restaurant: families sit together a distance from each other. Don’t walk around. Don’t share things with other tables. Surfaces regularly sanitized.

    See any differences?
    (Happens to be I think Shuls should stay open and follow common sense cleaning and cleanliness and sanitization)

    #1840186
    Mammele
    Participant

    In NYC restaurants will only be open for take-out/delivery as of Tuesday and most Shuls are still open.

    I’d like to take this opportunity to request that those Kosher restaurant owners that can – in order to make up for lost business and as a service to the community – Kasher their place for Pesach and sell Kosher l’Pesach this year. Talk to the relevant Kashrus agencies to see if you can make it happen. There will be a real need for take-out for those that usually go to hotels for Pesach, as well for the elderly that don’t want to mingle with family and risk infection, or those that may Ch”V be moderately sick and unable to prepare or be guests and spread the virus.

    Stay healthy and strong everyone! And Daven for all of us!

    #1840181
    s99 hakkor
    Participant

    yes take out food is allowed cause its really a sit down place like musterd,grill bar etc… shuls shouldent have more than 30 to 40 ppl. s99hakkor

    #1840175
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Sam: Read the several letters on the news site from top frum medical professionals who are unanimous in their view demanding a total and immediate shutdown of all schools, shuls and public gatherings. Their views echo those of the public health leadership in both EY and the U.S. At this point, their views are the ONLY ones that should prevail.

    #1840227
    Joseph
    Participant

    The point is that shockingly shuls closed quicker and earlier and voluntarily while eat-in sit-down restaurants continued with business as usual.

    #1840224
    charliehall
    Participant

    Our local kosher restaurants — in fact, ALL our local restaurants — are much smaller than any of our shuls (or the much smaller number of churches) in the neighborhood therefore they don’t offer as much risk.

    However, restaurants and bars are indeed closing after tomorrow.

    #1840258
    takahmamash
    Participant

    “People need to have access to take out foods . . .”
    They do? They NEED to have access? Why? Can they not cook at home?

    #1840249
    Abba_S
    Participant

    We say each day that we love G-d with all our might and all our soul. Yet when there is merely a fear that someone will get sick we close our shuls and schools? Over 80 per cent of those who catch it don’t even realize they have and those who die from it have other health problems which contributed to it. I for one will continue to go to shul and pray for those sick with these disease.

    #1840293
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    ABBA S,  you might not realize you are infected. The whole idea is to stop the transmission. While you might not realize you are sick you’re infecting others, including the elderly.

    Edited

    #1840277
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Abba

    “Yet when there is merely a fear that someone will get sick we close our shuls and schools? ”

    No that isnt the fear.
    This was explained on another thread :

    The fear is of overwhelming the healthcare system .

    If the virus spreads unchecked lets say half the people in NYC get it. (one of the lower estimates)
    There are 8 million people, that means 4 million people get it.

    Of those the vast majority (80%) don’t even realize they have it or have very mild symptoms.
    That means 800,000 people (20% of 4 million) get fairly sick . Lets say a 10th (a low estimate) of them are very sick and need hospitalization.
    that’s 80,000 people .
    There are about 50,000 hospital beds in NYC (and many of those are obviously being used by those already there or who have other acute conditions unrelated to Corona, Heart attacks, strokes infections etc)
    THAT is the problem.
    Not to mention that Of those who get very sick from corono-virus many need ICUs or vent. There are about 3,200 ICU beds and 5,000 vents in the city . IF 80,000 people show up w/ respiratory issues many needing vents and there are 5000 vents (many already being used) hopefully you see the catastrophe.

    Since then YWN reported that cumoo said there are 600 available ICU beds in NY STATE !

    The key is to slow the spread yes half the city might still get it, but not at once, spread out over time Most will be asymptomatic or close to it. but the reality few who get very sick will have beds, vents, not to mention doctors to take care of them .

    “I for one will continue to go to shul and pray for those sick with these disease”
    Just make sure nobody says amen to your berachos, ain ze mevarech elah menaetz

    #1840272
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Abba_s, I take it you’re under 60 and in good health, so you see little risk in going to shul. There may be a like-minded person in shul who’s infected and shows no symptoms. You in turn may become infected and also show no symptoms and then infect others. Or you may be among the 20% who become severely ill and require hospitalization. The idea of social distancing is to prevent the severe cases from overwhelming the hospitals.

    Where I live, all the shuls and schools are closed. This step wasn’t taken lightly, nor was it taken in a vacuum. Gedolim were consulted and they were unanimous that this was a painful but necessary step.

    #1840278
    meir G
    Participant

    what took haman months ,& the communist years , our roshei mosdos did with a few clicks of a keyboard when not even one child in each mosad is ill ,
    NOTZCHU ARELIM ES HAMETZUKIM – how weak we are , but if they were to close the ” mikva tahara ” for a few weeks than we would hear a vayitzaku

    #1840310
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Nobody says stop the learning, just stop going to the Beis Medrash. Learn from home and do a Chavrusa via phone and video chat

    #1840311
    Joseph
    Participant

    YehudaYona: Please name specifically which Gedolim said that Yeshivos, Butei Medrashim and Shuls must close.

    I await.

    #1840381
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    <e> Please name specifically which Gedolim said that Yeshivos, Butei Medrashim and Shuls must close.

    I await.

    Rabbi Mordechai Willig

    #1840384

    Joseph: Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt stated he spoke to various gedolim (he didn’t name them as he didn’t have permission to [publicize their names).

    #1840403
    Joseph
    Participant

    Never believe stuff about “I can’t publicize the names of the rabbis who said so”, so they must remain anonymous rabbis.

    #1840431
    rational
    Participant

    Um, Lakewood Yeshiva?

    #1840459
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    There is a simple explanation:

    The rabbanim and administration of shuls and mosdos are more responsible than restaurant owners.

    I am pleasantly surprised at this chiddush but newly optimistic about broad Jewish leadership.

    #1840471
    yehudayona
    Participant

    From an email widely circulated in Far Rockaway: “Many local Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim discussed myriad aspects of the current situation at length this morning. In consultation over the last few days with Gedolei Yisroel in the U.S. (Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a; Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlit”a; Rav Feivel Cohen shlit”a, and others), as well as with several prominent and reputable doctors and infectious disease experts, we have arrived at the following guidelines. …”

    #1840526
    user176
    Participant

    No one said you can’t gather ten people spread out in a house for a minyan. No one said you can’t learn from home. I have need learning over the phone for a whole week and we actually used the time saved on parking to learn, so we’re learning even more than usual.

    #1840536
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Rational
    BMG is being forced to close by the state, do you have any proof otherwise? Let’s also keep in mind that it is essentially bein hazmonim.
    I am proud to live in Flatbush where the Shuls are open and our learning is keeping the world going. I just walked by the kosher ice cream store that is doing a brisk business. It’s across the street from a shul. I couldn’t imagine the avla of an open ice cream store and a closed shul.
    Check out bava kamma 60b . During a plague you stay home (don’t go for ice cream) but that same piece talks about the protection of a shul with a minyan or learning children

    #1840600
    mattisyahu
    Participant

    Irresponsible behavior by the rest of the world is a very odd measure to hold ourselves to.

    The facts… Keeping shuls open, especially without social distancing enforced, will contribute to more people getting sick and dying (due to lack of available medical care as the medical system will likely be ovewhelmed in short order). This is a certainty, not a question at this time. Anyone that says otherwise is not informed of the facts.

    The question… if keeping shuls open at this time will definitely contribute to more people dying what is the appropriate response for a jew?

    If anyone suggests that people will not die and therefore we should all go about business as usual, well I would wonder then, at what point is a yid obligated to seek out the emes?

    #1840610
    Abba_S
    Participant

    I realize that some of you consider me to be less of a Jew because I want to keep shuls open and Daven with a minyan. Unlike many of you I can’t stay home and telecommute. I have to be at my desk and in order to do so that I have to take a subway each day there and back. While the Governor may say use less crowded trains you can wait all day until you find an empty train. The trains are still full there is no six feet barrier between riders although it maybe easier to get a seat. So if it is as dangerous as you claim why are the subways which is under the state jurisdiction still running.

    I try to daven mincha during lunch time and usually can find a minyan and perhaps the merit of praying with a minyan protects me from the virus but there are those who work in the neighborhood and usually would daven with a minyan but since their rabbi said no davening with a minyan even with masks and gloves and a separation of over 6 feet, they wouldn’t come.

    #1840627
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    So, a shul in the Five Towns decided to stay open .It now develops that a mispallel who was sick came, has tested positive and has subjected the rest of the minyan to quarantine . Abba, how do you stop an infected individual from attending your minyan because it’s zaydes yarzeit? Can’t happen? Last week a selfish frum guy flew to Florida on Jet Blue even though he had just been tested ( and thus should have self quarantined until he got the results). He found out he was positive and then , because he felt he had to daven with a minyan, went home and went to shul. How do you stop someone like him out of your minyan?

    #1840644
    mattisyahu
    Participant

    Abba_s – I am not commenting on the issue of people needing to work. This is a real problem that has to be balanced between the cost to life here (some businesses are essential to life, such as people in food and medicine). Mitt Romney today suggested giving every adult in the US $1,000. Might not be enough for a Jewish family contemplating Pesach (people facing financial uncertainty here need to find ways to cut costs NOW… as we have no way of knowing how long till things return to some normalcy) but will help people put food on their table for a bit.

    All I am pointing out is that every additional transmission of this diseases adds to the burden on our medical system which is very likely going to fail in short order. I pray and hope that it does not come to this but without question if this thing is not stopped we will be there. Hence, to the extent any one of us can avoid being in a situation where they contribute to the spread of this, they are saving lives. Unfortunately, it is hard for me to contemplate right now, where sufficient testing is not in place, how our shuls can still be open without strict social distancing enforced (at least social distancing can slow this, however given the levels this may be at already, that might not be enough and I think the proper action is to close them). Shuls, Churches, Mosques, and other places where people are in close contact and moving around are definite hot spots for this thing to spread. When you walk into a shul, that does not have proper distancing (if that is even sufficient) you are contributing definitely to this epidemic. Much like you can’t daven in middle of Ocean Pky and hope your tefillos will protect you there, I don’t think you can rely on your teffilos to stop what is a definite that your very action of congregating together is contributing to.

    I would point out further that we as a community in the coming days may find out that between Purim and this past shabbos this thing has spread far wider in our community than we realize. I fear that in two weeks people will be saying or thinking like the folks in Italy are saying now, if only we took this more seriously sooner.

    Hashem Yishmar.

    #1841198
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Hagaon Rav Dovid Cohen has issued a P’sak Against Davening B’tzibbur During Coronavirus Crisis, Calls it ‘Cheftza Shel Aveirah’ and “Atzas Hayeitzer’

    #1841224
    bsharg2
    Participant

    If you daven with a minyan, you need to keep a 6 foot distance between you and others, and dont touch anyone. Clean surfaces with disinfectant. This virus is very deadly and dangerous. We must take it seriously. Now.

    #1841475
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The photos tonight from Italy where army trucks carrying dozens of caskets for mass cremation to other areas where the crematoriums were not overwhelmed was chilling. Nearly 500 deaths today alone and Italy today exceeded the death total from China with more than 10x the population.

    #1841487
    Joseph
    Participant

    GHD: China, like Iran but unlike Italy, is likely grossly lying in their published numbers of victims of this virus in their country.

    #1841498
    Abba_S
    Participant

    I think many of you fail to understand that there are people that must work. I don’t think my work is critical and the Governor stated that employers should let their employees work from home half the time, but my boss didn’t get the message. In order to go to work I have to use the subways and I try to keep my distance. As long as I am using the subway I see no difference between it and going to shul. I go around after work looking for a minyan as most shuls are closed.
    The only reasons I would stop going to work are:
    A) Boss says I don’t have to come in
    B) Health Dept. gives me paperwork that I have to be quarantined.
    C) Get a doctors note that states I can’t come to work.
    D) Mass transit system stops running.
    These minyunim are mostly outside on the street with 10 – 20 people and adequate spacing between people.
    I am not saying you should daven with a minyan now, but once people get used to davening in the house it going to be harder to get minyunim in shuls. I don’t think this will go away in a week or two. It will be months before it gets back to normal i.e. no new cases.
    Also if you are sick don’t daven with a minyan. Likewise, keep adequate spacing between people during davening and do not speak directly in someone else’s face as you maybe transmitting the disease also no hugging or shaking hands.
    Most Rabbis disagree with me hence all shuls are closed in Flatbush as far as I know. But if it is so contagious why are the subway and buses still running? The title should be why are shuls closed while mass transit is running ?

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