Shul's Nusach or the Kahal's Nusach?

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  • #615986
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We all know, of course, that the Nusach of davening follows the minhag of the place where you are. If you’re a Nusach Ashkenaz davener who is davening for the amud in a place where the tzibbur davens Nussach Sefard, you must follow their davening. One is not allowed to arbitrarily institute their own Nusach in such a circumstance.

    However, I began to wonder — what is it, exactly, that you have to follow? The Nusach of the shul or the Nusach of the Kahal?

    Imagine, if you will, that I rented a shul for a private affair — a siyum, a sheva brachos, a bas mitzvah*, etc.) and, at some point during or after the affair, we’re going to daven Mincha and/or Ma’ariv. Now the shul davens Nusach Sefard (NS) and I and my friends and family daven Nusach Ashkenaz (NA).

    If the point is to follow the Nusach of the Kahal, then I would probably be free to daven NA, since the Kahal that davens NS is not present. However, if one follows the Nusach of the shul, then perhaps we should daven NS, even if no one from the shul is present**, since the shul’s policy is to daven NS.

    Thoughts? Comments? Citations?

    Thanks in advance.

    The Wolf

    * Please let’s not turn this into an argument of whether or not a bas mitzvah is permitted…

    ** Yes, I know that I *could* get away with it and that they would likely never find out… but that doesn’t make it right.

    #1091270
    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    great question. as a gabbai of a large chassidishe shul in the midwest, If you are renting our hall and davening in the hall you may daven your nusach. As far as I know even if you daven in our bais medresh if it is not one of our regular minyan times the Rebbe wouldn’t mind if you daven your nusach. If you are davening with our khal at a regular shul minyan you daven our nusach even though the amud siddur is Berditchov we let people use the artscroll amud siddur if they would like. As long as they daven sfard no problem

    #1091271
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Thank you, chaplaintzvi. While you may generously choose to be mapkid on this in your shul, that doesn’t really answer the question when such conditions are not specified. I could just as easily see someone being makpid on such a matter.

    The Wolf

    #1091272
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Thank you, chaplaintzvi. While you may generously choose to be mapkid on this in your shul, that doesn’t really answer the question when such conditions are not specified. I could just as easily see someone being makpid on such a matter.”

    Thats why I dont get your question. As you correctly point out in your follow up post. Some are makpid and some are not. without asking the gabaim/owner/rabbi of the shul, how can any of us know?

    That said, most probably wouldnt mind. Usually you can sense the “flavor” of the shul that would mind. For example congregations that put a very heavy emphasis on mesorah probably would be makpid, such as some sephardim, some chasidim and deffinitly yekes (mesowrah in their case).

    Though even those that are generally makpid,might not be makpid for mincha/maariv which has less of a “established” feel than shachris (lets not debate whther it should or shouldnt be that way).

    Bottom line: ask.

    #1091273
    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    ubiquitin has it right in his bottom line. “best to do is ask”

    #1091274
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    chaplaintzvi, there are chasidim in the midwest?

    #1091275
    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    yes you litvak 😉

    #1091276
    writersoul
    Member

    Wolf: In EY, it’s actually the other way around in many shuls. The kahal davens in the nusach of the baal tefillah. In fact, many shuls have little reversible signs (Ashkenaz/Sefard) so that the baal tefillah can indicate to the kahal which one he will be davening (it’s often worth it to bring two siddurim). In fact, I’ve been in shuls where on Shabbos they will daven Ashkenaz for Shacharis and Sefard for Mussaf…

    #1091277
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Hey Chap! Long time no see here in the CR! You know my daughter is an assistant this summer to Mrs. “Chevy on a sled,” if you know what I mean!

    As far as the actual topic of this thread, I’ve seen some mini minyan factory type of shuls that have signs something like:7:00, 7:20-Sfard. 7:40 Ashkenaz, 8:00, 8:20, 8:40 sfard, 9:00 Ashkenaz, etc.

    #1091278
    ruvain
    Participant

    On the subject of davening from the ohmed, if the congregation has a particular siddur, should someone davening from the ohmed be allowed to use a different siddur (for example using artscroll instead of a Chabad siddur)?

    #1091279
    apushatayid
    Participant

    when did artscroll become a nusach? 🙂

    #1091280
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Thats why I dont get your question. As you correctly point out in your follow up post. Some are makpid and some are not. without asking the gabaim/owner/rabbi of the shul, how can any of us know?

    The question is, “do I even have to worry about it?”

    If the answer is the Nusach of the Kahal, then I don’t, as the Kahal is not present. If the answer is the Nusach of the Shul, then I do have to worry about it.

    The Wolf

    #1091281
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Wolf

    In their shul they make the rules. Theycould be makpid that only people with names starting with w can daven for the amud or that only a certain nusach can be davened.

    In most shuls its safe to assume that outside of the main beis medrash they dont mind if ou daven another nusach or if a non-w name davens. (I wouldnt assume this for certain kehillos identified in the previous question)

    So to answer your question “”do I even have to worry about it?”

    unlike the starting letter of the person davening which I doubt anybody cares about, there are definitely some shuls that are makpid on this. Best is to ask.

    #1091282
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    ubiquitin,

    If the rule, by default, is “nusach of the Kahal,” then I can assume the default is that I don’t have to worry (unless they say otherwise). If the rule is “nusach of the Shul” then, I would imagine, by default, I *do* have to worry.

    The Wolf

    #1091283
    gefen
    Participant

    Hey chaplaintzvi – great to see you here! How have you been? 😉

    Midwesterner – Mrs. Chevyonasled loves working with your daughter! She’s also working with a sister of a boy who recently married into our “sunshine” family.

    apushatayid – I like your comment “when did artscroll become a nusach? :)”

    #1091284
    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    yeah i am back. people beware the chaplain is in the house. I have a great posek, yora yora yudin yudin, waiting to be asked shailos. bring it on people. Hello Gefen always nice to see you

    #1091285
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Wolfish.

    We are going in circles

    “If the rule, by default, is…”

    There is no default, they make the rule. It can be “nusach of the kahal” or “nusach of the shul” they can even have a giant dreidel near the amud with sefard/ashkenaz/eidot mizrach and wild card on the sides that determines the nusach. In their shul they make the rules.

    Most do not care.

    Some will.

    If you are unsure, ask them.

    #1091286
    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    Hi people chaplain here. I just got finished speaking over the issue with the Rebbe. He told me I was right except for the point about davening in the shul itself. Even if not with a regular shul minyon the guests should daven the nusach of the shul. He told me a story of about a thousand viznitzer chassidim went to visit the k’vorim of tzaddikim in Europe and they were davening in the Rama’s shul. The Rebbe told everyone that they must daven ashkenaz as that is what the Ramam held.

    #1091287
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    chaplaintzvi, there are Rebbes in the midwest?

    #1091288
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Regarding chaplaintzvi’s story about the Chassidim davening at the Rama’s shul: I believe there are significant differences between “regular” nusach ashkenaz (aka nusach Artscroll) and the Rama’s nusach.

    #1091289
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    ubiquitin,

    I think we may be misunderstanding each other. Let me try it this way…

    I think we can both agree that if a shul has an explicit policy, then that policy must be followed. My question of whether NS or NK applies is a question of halacha, not of shul choice — what is the halacha when you’re using a shul and the regular minyan of the shul is not there? It’s not a question of what the shul’s policy is. If the shul has a policy, then we all agree that that trumps all. It’s a question of what the halacha is in the absence of such a policy.

    The question is, what if the shul does not have (or has not told me) that they have an explicit policy?

    If the halacha is that the nussach of the Shul trumps all, then I have to have my friends/family daven the nussach of the Shul. However, if the halacha is the nusach of the Kahal, then we should be free to daven any nusach we choose, since the Kahal is not present at my private affair.

    This is only a question when there is no explicit policy stated. It’s all well and good to say “well, ask them.” The question arises when I have, for whatever reason failed to do so and either cannot or do not want to disturb the gabbai of the shul at work or on his day off to find out the policy of the shul.

    The Wolf

    #1091290
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Wolfish

    As mentioned before. Most shuls do not mind. There are some who do.

    If you are not sure and cannot ask it is safe to assume they do not mind (outside of main shul). with a few exceptions as mentioned above.

    In the main shul it is safe to assume that most do mind.

    #1091291
    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    yehudayona first of all we are not talking artscroll ashkenaz, viznitz davens sfard. When they went to Rama’s shul they had to daven the nusach of the rama, which is ahkenaz.

    Wolfishmusings, as a gabbai whether I am at work or time off I still am the gabbai,it is my responsibility to be there for the khal, guests, or any one that needs. You call to make sure what you are doing is the right thing that is always safest way to go.

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