August 20, 2014 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #613468wannabechasidishMember
what do you think about when schools have things that you need to sign saying you wont go on internet, have email, have cell phone, ect. when they know that a lot of their students will anyways do what they signed not to.August 21, 2014 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1029391
I think it’s wrong because the parents should not be able to sign on their children’s’ behalf, and the children shouldn’t be forced to sign.August 21, 2014 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1029392ChanieEParticipant
What do I think? I think you might be sending your kids to the wrong school.
If you agree with the rules but much of the parent body does not then it is probably not the kind of crowd you want your child to be with. Children are very strongly influenced by their peers. It also sounds like the school administration is out of touch and those are not people I would want to be mechanech my children.
If you do not agree with the rules but are signing anyway you may as well save your tuition money and send the kids to public school. Whatever Torah they might learn will be outweighed by the parental message that you have no respect for the school and that it’s OK to lie when it’s convenient.August 21, 2014 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1029393
Children are not as easily influenced as you might think. They are more likely to be carried away by their own imaginations.August 21, 2014 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1029394TheGoqParticipant
At my job i have to read and sign things the main purpose being that if i fall off a ladder and break my neck it will be my fault and not my employers.August 21, 2014 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1029395rebbi1Participant
are you talking about a case where the students are signing and then going ahead and breaking the rules, or do you mean parents who are lying about things they do or don’t do?August 21, 2014 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1029396
It makes sense to have that, but it’s so normal now everyone just lies.
We actually asked many prominent rabbeim and they told us for me and my siblings future that we are allowed to lie and sign it knowing we will not keep it at all…August 21, 2014 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1029397YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
And why should we believe that statement is any more honest then the contract you signed?
🙂August 21, 2014 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #10293982qwertyParticipant
I’m curious how the Rabbis explained it? Whats the reason that lying is fine in this case?August 21, 2014 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1029399
You think I went to ask a Rabbi if I could lie and say we signed the contract with permission from rabbanim instead of not signing or intending to keep it instead of saying that we really did not sign it or signed it with the intention of keeping it just for fun?August 21, 2014 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1029400popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think it’s idiotic.August 21, 2014 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1029401writersoulParticipant
I personally only went to schools where I could with a clear conscience keep any rules I signed on to.
My sister is now going to a school with a no internet rule. My mother told the school that it’s not happening. They told her that they know that everyone’s on the internet anyway and that she should sign it and keep on as she was already.August 21, 2014 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1029402🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
I sometimes wrote near my signature that I’m only signing because they’re making me, not because I mean it.August 21, 2014 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1029403
I never signed, so I didn’t have to follow the rules.August 21, 2014 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1029404shtusimParticipant
In my children’s schools, THE PARENTS have to sign.August 21, 2014 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1029405WolfishMusingsParticipant
but it’s so normal now everyone just lies.
When my kids were in elementary school, there were school rules that we adhered to, even though we didn’t agree with them. True, they didn’t make us sign a document, but we adhered to the rules. I would not agree to rules (and certainly not sign any document) that I was not prepared to live up to.
Fortunately, the high schools we chose for our kids did not have any such restrictions.
The WolfAugust 22, 2014 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1029407oyyoyyoyParticipant
I was always afraid since “Loy Chotzif Inish”. Did it anyways eventually and that just lowered my moral bar.August 22, 2014 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1029408
Cuz we needed good schools, and anyway most of the people in my BY high school have much worse things than internet…they are lucky all I do is go to the CR, my e-mail, and watch disney movies with my siblings…August 22, 2014 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1029409
Good schools? Where are they?August 22, 2014 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1029410yitzchokmParticipant
Shopping, so the ruv said it was ok to just lie? What was on the contract that couldn’t be followed? And if it really was to complicated or against your family’s haskofos why “ruin” them and the school for your selfishness?August 24, 2014 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1029411VogueMember
Thats like saying a frum bt should not be able to go to by because her parents watch tv. But clearly the community does not agree witb such a statement as evidenced by organizations such as oorah.August 24, 2014 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1029412
Like they seriously expect more than 1/16 to keep everything. Most of the people in my school ,their parents are BT, rich, american.
Most of the girls I know watch very inappropriate stuff on their iphones or labtops, even though, you aren’t allowed internet in the house at all or a cell phone, even kosher…
We aren’t going to change my whole family’s life and turn it upside down for school.
Are family already moved way up higher than we used to be…
We weren;t going to change…
Slowly I hope one day I’ll be in those standards really, but right now….it seems like it must be a chasidish school the crazy things they ask.
Not to go out after 9 pm.
Before you babysit, ask if the family has any secular music, books, or media, or internet, if so, I’m not allowed to babysit….
Exuse them!!! That is extremely rude? You think the rabanim made such a rule?August 25, 2014 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1029413yitzchokmParticipant
nice rant but you didn’t respond coherently to any of my questions.
1) did a ruv give you permission to lie?
2) What’s on the contract, specifically, that you can’t follow?
3) If you feel that there are unreasonable rules according to your haskofos,, why do you feel it’s correct to ignore them instead of finding another school-more aligned to your family’s haskofos?August 25, 2014 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1029414
1) Yes, he did! In this situation, he did
2)Internet mostly…and other things, like the babysitting rule, and wearing skirts down to the middle of the leg (I STILL have yet to see at least 1 girl following THAT!!!) many, many things…
I am tzniyus, I do not wear skirts that barely cover the knee, my shortest skirt, isn’t that short, I wear shirts that cover more than my elbow and collar (which many girls don’t) I wear =, usually 40 denar (many girls, after school don’t wear anything) and this is a BY school…
3) Ha, there is no other school, beleive me, I wish, and I’m not flying out of the country for school, our rabanim agreed it would be bad for me….
and being in a school with higher standerds…I’ve grown higher, unlike other girls who stay the same.
The the next lower down school here is the lowest BY in the country, where the whole city is aware, most girls have iphones and boyfriends.
The next higher up school is chasidish.
So where do I go then??August 25, 2014 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1029415oomisParticipant
IMO, everyone should stop obsessessing with things or themselves as being “higher” “lower”. A good Yeshivah is a good Yeshivah, and working on yourself in ANY area of life does not make you “higher” (because if you actually perceive yourself that way, then you are a baal gaiveh, which automatically makes you lower).
We all need to work on our hashkafos, on our middos, on our avodas Hashem. Only Hashem can decide if we are higher or not. Putting down other schools, people, hashkafos, modes of dress, shidduch style, decisions about earning or learning (or both), is counter-productive, and certainly not a positive aspect of being a Torah-true Jew.August 25, 2014 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1029416
Oomis, I totally agree with you, that is also my general opinion.
But in this case, I labeled the school as lower, since it’s easier to just use labels.
I meant, I have been there, and seen the girls, I have neighbors, I’ve hung out a few times with girls from there in my age.
I don’t think I should put myself in such a school, it wouldn’t be good for me, I think these girls would bring me down, to levels I used to be on.
My friends agree, my parents do to.
I actually went for a interveiw there, and the first thing the principal said was “This is NOT for you!!! Go to ______ (Where I am in now)and throughout the interveiw she strongly tried to tell me to go somewhere else, and at the end said “You are certainly welcome to come to our school, we would love you, but I strongly suggest for you’re benefit to go to ___________.
I am not suggesting this is a bad school, no it is a wonderful school!!!! I love how the teachers are there, and the studies, and how they work with you, but I would be iunfluenced badly there…unlike where I am in now….August 25, 2014 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1029417benignumanParticipant
The reason a Rav would counsel someone to lie on such a form is because the school knows that their rules, as written, are extreme, and that the parent and student body are not following them. In fact, in many cases the school itself doesn’t follow the rules as written.
As such the terms in the contract are a guzma, an exaggeration, and because both parties know it is an exaggeration, it is not a lie to sign it even if you have no intention of keeping it literally (so long as you have intention of keeping its real meaning/purpose).
Mashul l’ma hadavar domeh, if it is common among shadchanim to lie about the ages of older singles, then it is mutar for a given shadchan to “lie” about a given single’s age because everyone in the field knows that you have to take the ages given with a grain of salt.August 25, 2014 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1029418
I am very sorry, if I came across like I was putting down that school. It would not be good for me, like everyone likes a different camp, it’s not the others are bad, it’s just that the one they found suites them more.August 25, 2014 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1029419benignumanParticipant
That being said, I would recommend adding to the contract the following: “I am signing this contract and committing to these rules with the understanding that they are subject to reasonable exception in my best judgment as parent to my child.”August 25, 2014 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1029420
Benignman, you are right.
I didn’t ask the Rabanim, my parents did.
I know they spoke to many rabanim and they knew the situation and decided I should lie.
But don’t listen to that!
Cuz every situation is different!
You need to ask your rav, maybe in general, you shouldn’t lie, I know people who added that they won’t follow the internet policy at the end and were fine.
I’m saying, we asked, were told to lie.
But we aren’t everyone and no on e should do something based on what they heard in anonymous forum, unless they took the idea and asked people, rabanim in real life if it is a good idea or not.
I think in general you need to ask your rav, end of sentence, topic, and thread.August 25, 2014 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1029421AnOriginalTitleParticipant
In many cases when a school requires something like that it is more so that they’ll have backup to punish those who are abusing said thing (internet etc.) than to actually forbid it.
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