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pacman i think boys should have the decency to turn away as i leave the car
girlsarb – that’s true but not an excuse for there to be what to turn away from. The skirt should be long enough to cover the knees, when it rides up, when getting into or out of a car, as well as any other situation that we find ourselves in during the course of the day.
Back to the posters under discussion. Do they cite sources for their rulings? Do they state which Rav reviewed the halachos? Is a single one of these posters hanging in or near an establishment that sells clothing they don’t approve?
Women have to follow these rules because they want to and not because they are being forced to or because they are bombarded by signs. Also because the choices they are given are pretty and flattering.
The options they have available to them need to be stylish and exciting. If the clothing that bombard them when they enter the stores are fashionable, exciting but not quite what the Rabbi ordered, it makes it very difficult to do the right thing. Especially when the sales people tell them “everyone is buying them, its all the rage. You can always take it to the dressmaker to add to the hem, etc.” But when they go to the dressmaker, she tells them, there is nothing to let down, or if you add a piece it will look awful and it is fine the way it is, everyone is wearing it this way. And if you try to return it to the store, they won’t take it back and they again reiterate “it is fine, everyone is wearing it this way”.
I am really sorry to say that the stores need to be held accountable and need to take some achrius here. Frum owners know exactly what they are doing when they bring these skimpy outfits into the store. They know exactly what they are doing when they make their suggestions how to wear them and add a tee shirt or let the hem down. They know exactly what they are doing when they ooh and ah how cute these items look on their clients and how they “must buy them”. They are promoting these non tznius looks just to promote their bottom line. It is easier to buy these available looks and not do their homework for the Frum consumer. It is easier to get the Frum consumer to buy these looks than to work harder to find the appropriate ones.
Knees being covered at ALL times — including getting into/out of car — is the halacha for everyone, not a custom.
pacman i think its going a bit far to say that we have to watch every second cos maybe there a guy out there staring. If a person wants to sin, then he can anyway look around him, its not worse if he looks at a frum girls thigh then the billboards nowadays!
girlsarb – Not because maybe theres someone staring, but because that’s what Hashem said. And even if someone inadvertently sees it, as the person just happened to look in that direction and wasn’t looking or staring at anything at all, it is a major problem. But the reason is because of what Hashem wants.
girlsarb-when you cover your knees and are tznius its a protection for yourself. its not ONLY so that no men see.
OK, so lets ask the appropriate questions here. If the same outfit was available in the store, one that was adorable but at the proper length and the same exact one that was NOT at the proper length, which one do you think will sell out first?
Straight skirts that are “in” now are especially problematic when they are short/ just covering the knee. There is no way they will cover when you are sitting, walking up steps etc. YES, the shorter the cuter/nicer/trendier. I AGREE. Well, therein lies the Nisayon.
So, are any of these posters hanging in the dressing rooms of the heimishe stores that sell this type of clothing? Near the register?
I think we need to work on our inner strengths when we shop and not be convinced to buy something that we really are unsure of. I am not here to condone the sales people, they are just doing their job, bottom line.I don’t have to answer for them above, just FOR MYSELF! One thing is for sure, if I met up with one of those salesladies you describe, I wouldn’t ask her opinion again, or I might not visit that store again.
apushata yid: Yes there are such signs in dressing rooms, but do all the people read them???
Aries: I don’t think you can always blame the store owners. A major problem in Tznius today is sizing. The customer “thinks ” they fit into a size small or petite when , Nebach they really need a large!
“Yes there are such signs in dressing rooms, but do all the people read them???”
Is this particular poster hanging in clothing stores?
A speech for women on tznuis won’t work I was at one a few years ago it was packed amazing! But pp who wanna turn a blind eye will and talking about store owners one of the speakers was the owner of mrs k she said its our acraus to point out to owners the not tzuis things they bring in…she said owners say I bring it in cuz that what everybody wants. Also I didn’t see the posters but I think its great we as women know perfectly well how long our shirt should be how loose our shirt should be what outlines shouldn’t be showing thru our skirt. Sheitels shoes…but I really think the men have no idea and if they did they would put there foot down w daughters and wifes its gotten really out of hand and yes 20yrs ago they didn’t say u had to wear 4inch below knee but we didn’t have the problem w teen girls and married women like we have today and it all starts w tznus
yes but i also think the frum companies are cutting the clothing to small, because when i buy clothing from the mall i am usually a small. However when i buy sweaters or vests from the frum stores i am usually a large/ xlarge. something is wrong here!
if you would call up most Poskim today they would tell you the minimum is 4″ below your Knee.
Golden mom you are 100% correct. I personally have no teenage daughters, but I do have a wife. It is up to me to say something to my wife, if I believe she is wearing something that she should not. If someone feels I am shirking my responsibility in this area, I personally believe the best way for them to deal with it is not by hanging posters on the street lights, but rather to call my Rav, or his Rebbetzin and point it out to them and let them deal with it in the way they see fit. Anonymous posters on street lights are about as effective as squirting bleach.
Don’t forget all the innocent bochorim who are reading these signs??????
Cell alert:: You are absolutely right!! There is a Rebbe who is going after the robe stores/ manufacturers for that exact reason!
I disagree apy. If it were a small problem you would be correct that we should call the person’s Rov or Rebbetzin. But the problem is two-fold; 1, it is a very unfortunately a massive widespread problem (not affecting b”H MOST frum people, but nevertheless all too many) and 2, many people don’t have a close enough connection to a Rov or Rebbetzin who will proactively seek to individually remedy the problem.
And I do believe the kol koreh’s do have a positive effect on the public. True, not everyone will take heed. But if even a FEW people do change as a result (and it WILL help with some), it is well worth the effort.
women who wear skirts that dont reach 4″ below the knee are the cause of serious illnesses, tragedies and other catastrophes in the world.
That is only so that men don’t have to own up to them being the ones who are looking for it.
“And I do believe the kol koreh’s do have a positive effect on the public.”
We will have to agree to disagree. I see no toeles in anonymous posters on street lights. Is there a name of a Rav, signed on to the particular poster this thread is discussing? If yes, that is great (and out of curiosity, who) if not, why not. One would think that if
“it is a very unfortunately a massive widespread problem” Rabbonim would be out in the forefront of the battle to correct such a problem and would gladly lend their name to such a poster.
I think that saying “i bring this into the store because that’s what the customers want” is a cop out. It is a viscous cycle. As I said before, if you bring the same thing in at a tznius length, they would buy it as well.
The Wall Street Journal had an article a few weeks ago about the new fashion trends. They said that longer skirts are coming back into style. The length they showed was about halfway between the knee and ankle. I kid you not.
So what happens now?
Either the whole 4-inches issue is about to become much easier for women to adhere to–it will be fashionable, it will be easier to find appropriate skirts to buy OR
There will be takanos that say that 4 inches below the knee is an inappropriate, Madison Avenue look, and women must wear their skirts closer to the ankle.
What do you think?
“boys should have the decency to turn away as i leave the car”
Ever consider the possibility they are scopin’ out the car?
Depending on the model, that might be the case!
lol, nice bpt!
Guys are very interested in a girls middos, not just those of the car she drives.
in certain communities it’s considered a lack of tznius for a woman to drive a car.
which brings us back to the fact that community norms play a very large role in determining what is appropriate.
hanging signs about skirt lenghs in public is highly untzeniusdik in my opinion……..
most women are not confused about tznius but rather conflicted . i doubt that hanging up signs inspires anyone
“most women are not confused about tznius but rather conflicted .”
bennaishek:
In what way are they “conflicted”?
I agree, if store will sell skirts 2-3 inches longer, women will buy it.
From another hand, when on Shabbos Rav of the shul wearing a shtroimel and his wife and daughters wearing skirts, which do not cover their knees, no one store owner can be blamed – the community girls follow the Rebbetzen. Unfortunatelly, this is the real story.
pac-man
” In what way are they “conflicted”?”
on the one hand they want to look a certain way .. on the other they know that the rite thing to do is to dress more modestly.
Ofcourse: They insist that the skirt be long enough to cover the knees in ALL positions throughout the day, including getting into/out of a car, going up stairs, and while sitting down.
Ofcourse: In order for the knee to covered while getting into/out of a car, going up stairs, and while sitting down you would need at least 4″ for most people. Some people may even need more than 4″. So the point is to insure it is covered in all those, and other, positions. (The schools use the 4″ rule of thumb as most people can’t use shorter and still be covered while getting into/out of a car, going up stairs, while sitting down, etc. The Rabbonim advise to wear something that will insure coverage at ALL times.)
Ofcourse: Yes.
is stating the truth offensive?
is stating the truth offensive?
Sometimes it is. Going up to an ugly person and stating “boy, you’re ugly” is offensive, even if it is the truth.
The Wolf
OC: I specified that they stipulated that it must cover the knees in ALL positions irregardless of the amount of inches below the knee, be it 4″, 3″, or 6″. I simply indicated — and you agreed — that for most people 4″ is minimally needed to reach that threshold.
Will less than 4″ ALWAYS cover the knees when sitting, walking stairs, and entering/exiting a vehicle? You’ve indicated above not. The Rabbonim, including all three that you’ve named, indicated that it must.
OC: I’m sorry if you object to the halacha or what the Rabbonim said. But I answered your question three times and you keep re-asking it, so you apparently don’t like what you are hearing. For the final time, they said it must ALWAYS be covered under ALL situations irregardless of how long it needs to be to reach that objective. (Regarding highly unusual heavy winds, you are not held responsible for something that you couldn’t anticipate.) But it must ALWAYS cover you when sitting, walking stairs, entering a car, and every other daily situation.
As far as the inches, there is no hard halachic number. Some people will need even more than 4″. They simply stipulated that it should ALWAYS cover you at ALL times throughout the day, every day. YOU said earlier (see your comment beginning with “Im not denying anything”) that you need at least 4″ to reach this point. Some Rabbonim may tell you a specific number that is minimally necessary to insure full coverage at ALL times and others will simply tell YOU to make sure it is covered at ALL times and have you figure out how many additional inches below the knee is necessary to achieve that goal.
“As far as the inches, there is no hard halachic number. Some people will need even more than 4″.”
I have a coworker whose skirts practically drag on the floor when she walks, yet when she sits at her desk, that’s not long enough.
In other words, ladies use your judgement what works for you and the way you live your life (IE stationary, constantly on the move, whatever) is how you should dress.
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