December 28, 2021 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2045783
“And I don’t understand sending girls to male therapists. And where is the tznius as well of women going to male therapists?”
requoted due to likage.
one thing i and many others don’t understand is why these alleged cases always come put twenty years later? Suddenly one minor, now two decades older, breaks out of their cracked shell and then inspires ten others to do the same.
Same story every time.
So the answer everyone’s going to say is that the victims are scared. The abuser threatens them. They’re young, etc.
First of all every single instance every single victim is scared stiff??? Seems implausible. Secondly, when Cuomo ym”sh was exposed, it was also years later, by those who weren’t ten year olds at the time.December 28, 2021 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2045795
Maybe the important question to ask is: do people see possible signs of abuse and ignore them as this sounds unlikely or too difficult to get involved? Did any institutions have relevant information and let it pass? Sotah and halokhos yihud teach that nobody is above suspicion in these issuesDecember 28, 2021 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2045867theshadchansaysParticipant
helllooo??? all of a sudden one situation occurs and females gonna stop going to male therapist??? that’s like saying because i didn’t like chocolate ice-cream, all ice-creams are bad.December 28, 2021 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2045877
therapists are somewhat different from lawyers as they are dealing with people who have psychological problems and are, thus, prone to be abused, and may have limited support and care at home (where psychological problems might be coming from).December 28, 2021 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #2045904user176Participant
Therapists are not exempt from the laws of yichud. Without knowing the specifics of these particular cases, I would expect parents of girls going to male therapists or anywhere for that matter to be more aware of what their daughter is/was doing. Certainly someone with this nisayon should avoid being in this situation. The facts of this case seem pretty black and white. Even still it is a sensitive topic and needs to be addressed (when necessary) as such. “Maybe it’s not true” simply will not cut it for those struggling to understand “how could something like this happen?” Whether it be this case or others things like this do happen and effort should be taken to reach out to professionals and understand for yourself and learn how to walk others through this reality.December 29, 2021 12:37 am at 12:37 am #2045919
In the recent incident and others, there were rumors for decades. I thought that was the discussion on the other thread. How could we react to heresy? How could we do nothing?December 29, 2021 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #2045965QuayboardwarriorParticipant
It’s sad how people are so convinced it was the gossiping that lead to suicide. Not the inability of facing the music.
It’s also sad how people are so keen to believe the accused, in face of an overwhelmingly number of accusers. Burying their heads in the sand, pretending these abuses don’t happen within our communities. Citing the need for irrevocable proof. The word of two witnesses was enough for beis din, yet now we tell ourselves 20+ people are in cahoots with eachother just to besmirch the name of an individual.
It’s this burying our heads in the sand is exactly what enables abusers to get away with what they’re doing.December 29, 2021 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #2046190
176> parents of girls going to male therapists
I would think that girls going to therapists may often have problems at home to begin with, so relying on parent supervision may not work well. Do we have places that teach therapists and halakha and hashkafa together, so that graduates can be relied upon?December 29, 2021 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2046290YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
Sorry, accidentally let that through. Seems some people can’t cope with the concept of not being specific.December 29, 2021 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #2046384user176Participant
AAQ which is why I prefaced that I don’t know exactly what these cases were. But in terms of the idea of “sending daughters to a male therapist” parents should be in tune with what’s going on, except for certain circumstances which they can’t be.
Quay- see the new article by zvi Gluck.December 30, 2021 12:34 am at 12:34 am #2046393
The issue lies at the doorstep of those who gave the referrals. People should know to go through respected organizations. Then at least there is someone to go to when therapy fails. Even when it was without crossing any boundaries.January 2, 2022 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2047354
each incident had only one witness.
witnesses only have power after being duly interrogated in B”D, under oath.January 2, 2022 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2047409
That is an assumption. And truthfully, it is an incorrect one.January 2, 2022 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2047443
what is an assumption?
What is incorrect about it?
Come on, talk. Don’t be a mod.January 2, 2022 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #2047464jackkParticipant
Do you really believe that a Rav is not allowed to do anything in these cases until they have 2 witnesses?
Or even one witness?
If the abused comes to the Rav and says what happened , the Rav should tell them that he won’t do anything ?!January 2, 2022 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2047467
Witnesses have clout before they enter the court. There are many Talmudic discussions about this.
And your assuming that what the din me a witness should have bearing on the facts. Then I’m surprised that you did not point out that they are female, and not valid in court.
But obviously, the fact that you can not testify on your own behalf, does not make you un-believed. The laws that pertain to what one is allowed/must believe, can be found in hilchos loshon horah. Not choshen mishpat.January 3, 2022 2:10 am at 2:10 am #2047620
“o you really believe that a Rav is not allowed to do anything in these cases until they have 2 witnesses?
Or even one witness?”
No I don’t believe that nor did I make any indication that I do.
“Witnesses have clout before they enter the court. There are many Talmudic discussions about this.
First I heard of it.
“Then I’m surprised that you did not point out that they are female, and not valid in court.”
That’s a good point. Although i believe there were also men.
“The laws that pertain to what one is allowed/must believe, can be found in hilchos loshon horah. Not choshen mishpat.”
100%. Which is why no one but quayboard brought in hilchos eidus.January 3, 2022 7:09 am at 7:09 am #2047642jackkParticipant
Sory, that I misunderstood you.
What do you mean by ” each incident had only one witness. witnesses only have power after being duly interrogated in B”D, under oath. ” ?January 3, 2022 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2047840
I mean that if you’re trying to prove that you’re allowed to believe and/or take action in the case at hand because the torah says to believe two witnesses, then it’s not comparable. That doesn’t mean you can’t believe them. It means the reason to believe them has nothing to do with typical testimony in B”D.January 5, 2022 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2048500mobicoParticipant
Here are some relevant thoughts by R’ Mordechai Kuber, a well-respected Rav in Telzstone:
In Defense of the Undefended
On Erev Shabbos Parshas Vaeira, I posted an article about the Chaim Walder tragedy. Since then, I had the opportunity to engage in a number of discussions, including with a well respected Posek. Although I still stand by the basic principles of my original piece, it is important to clarify some points and further elaborate, based on that which I have learned since then:
• I am not, and no Rav that I know is or ever has been, in favor of ignoring allegations of abuse. We all recognize the horrible, lifelong consequences of abuse and the need to act swiftly and resoundingly to protect victims from predators.
• Despite these shared concerns and goals, we all must be aware that the Torah’s laws guide our every action. We may do, say, and believe that which the Torah permits, and we must refrain from that which the Torah prohibits. No end, as important and critical as it may be, justifies prohibited means.
• Some of the technical issues that could stand in the way of the acceptance of an allegation of sexual abuse are the absence of the accused and the lack of witnesses.
• Despite these issues, any allegation in a Beis Din of abuse will lead to Beis Din’s immediate demand that the accused maintain complete distance from the victim, which affords full protection for the future. If the accused violates this injunction, Beis Din will enforce it as necessary. Any implication from that which I originally posted to the contrary was unintentional.
• If there are multiple allegations to the point that Beis Din suspects that the accused is guilty, even in the absence of witnesses, Beis Din will warn him to cease and desist from anything resembling inappropriate contact immediately. If he ignores this warning, Beis Din will banish him from the community with full force.
• Today, in Eretz Yisrael, there are Batei Din that specialize in this field, which are fully proficient in the laws governing when the requirements for the presence of the accused and male and/or adult witnesses could be waived.
• In general, one is not allowed to believe or pass along any negative information about another, even if it is in the newspaper.
• In general, people expose themselves to needless amounts of unnecessary information about goings on through their ownership of certain devices and their subscription to various services. Blissful ignorance of the world around is infinitely preferable to a self-inflicted information barrage. I was very pleased to learn that most people without these devices and subscriptions were almost completely unaware of the CW tragedy, and very sad to learn that those who indulge were well informed of an astounding amount of harmful, sordid details.
• Even when one is allowed to pass along negative information, it has to be for a constructive purpose. The most common constructive purpose is the protection of the one who will be hearing it, but there are other possibilities. There are many other conditions that have to be met regarding content and tone, and tests of altruism that must be passed. This is true even in cases of allegations of sexual abuse.
• In a case of multiple reports of distinct sinning, the case has moved from the category of an alleged crime to that of one who has developed a reputation of sinning. Multiple reports are not equivalent to staggering evidence in support of the allegations. Nevertheless, developing such a reputation is a transgression in its own right, which allows Beis Din to punish the accused for it, and allows others to relate this information to the extent that it is purposeful.
• In the CW case, the reports of sinning had reached this stage, allowing others to pass along these reports to the extent that it is purposeful to do so and that it is one’s intent. But it is not license for random slander. As always, one has to be very careful of his intentions. There is great harm to all concerned in relaying damaging information, even when permissible and even when necessary. Sometimes there is no choice, but it should be passed along with a heavy heart.
• With CW’s passing, there is no longer any purpose in spreading these reports, even if there had been before. It has been explained to me by those with intimate knowledge of the Gedolim’s opinion that they desire that continued discussion of this topic should be brought to a halt immediately, because it is harmful to all concerned, especially to the young.
• It is undeniable that CW left this world by taking his own life. Suicide is absolutely forbidden and it is equivalent to murder. Regardless of whatever he was going through, there is no justification for such a terrible act. This is a terrible, final legacy for him to have left his many present and potential future followers. Therefore, I was advised by a prominent Rav, in contradiction to my previous opinion, that there is no choice but to purge his books from the stores, from the libraries, and from our homes. It is certainly sad to have to give up one of the few truly valuable and appropriate series of contemporary books, but to hold on to them would only condone in some way this terrible crime. We cannot allow our children to think that suicide is ever acceptable, and that it is anything but murder. In addition, since the reports of other sinning had created their own reality of transgression, there is the risk of condoning that as well.
• This tragedy should reinforce in us all the importance of avoiding situations of prohibited yichud. No one is immune, and it is asking for trouble.
• It should also reinforce for us the dangers of inappropriate devices and social media. It exposes us to an overload of harmful images and information and enables widespread damage with a few thoughtless clicks. Yes, I mentioned this above but it is worth additional mention. Kosher phones are the best, by far. They prevent much grief and keep at a distance the sadness and unsavory details of the world at large.
• Let us all pray for b’soros tovos.January 6, 2022 1:13 am at 1:13 am #2048609Johnny PicklesauceParticipant
theshadchansays: #X4aSnort? That was just way too cringy….Whatever.January 6, 2022 7:51 am at 7:51 am #2048640Shopping613 🌠Participant
Maybe people would come forward more if they weren’t put in cherem for it, people were trying to set their houses on fire, and they wouldn’t get all their kids kicked out of school.
But alas – that’s the reality.January 6, 2022 10:37 am at 10:37 am #2048716YeshivishrockstarParticipant
Mobico: R Kuber’s suggestions are great – if you want to ensure that abuse continues.
Also, his statement in regards to kosher phones seems more of an argument against having one. It s a pity R Kuber doesn’t seem to realize that.January 6, 2022 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2048847ujmParticipant
YRockStar: I think you should trade positions with Rav Kuber; you should call yourself a Rov and start giving hadrocha to people and give yourself the right to give your deios to Klal Yisroel. While you’ll give your colorful clothing to Rav Kuber and teach him a thing or two about being singing rock songs for his new day gig.January 6, 2022 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #2048867mobicoParticipant
Here is a Shiur by R’ Shraga Feivel Zimmerman on this topic:
https://www.torahanytime. com/#/lectures?v=173791January 7, 2022 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2049037
The lengthy statement givin above if nothing else, is at least consistent. The originator, seems to have a narrow view of all the issues discussed. Obviously, when it comes to dealing with the larger issues that effect Jews across different countries, there is very little sound advice. But the concern being addressed is how one Yid staying in his corner should or should not / must or must not react to these recent events.
My reason for sharing on this, is that people think that our clergy intentionally prevents this and other issues from being dealt with. This statement demonstrates, that the originator never considered it for more than the occurrence that it was. The same approach is being utilized to the internet and media in general.
There are many people who prefer to avoid this topic. An equal amount will do almost anything to properly address this issue. This message is being directed to the former group.
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