Silencing the Psychotic Medication Debate
Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Silencing the Psychotic Medication Debate
- This topic has 49 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 4 months ago by commonsaychel.
November 17, 2022 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2139331
So there has been a thread opened recently about psychotic medication. I responded to that thread. Only one comment that I wrote has been published and then the thread was taken down. This is remncisnet to how so many were silenced in the media and in the medical industry about the covid-19 vaccine. Why can’t we let people argue and debate? People should be able to decided for themselves which side of the fence they are on and what they want for themselves regarding their health.
If there is silencing of this topic or other topics then it is because there are some who are afraid of a debate for good reason. Perhaps there is some truth they don’t want to hear.November 17, 2022 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #2139346rightwriterParticipant
Are pills a good idea or not? What are alternatives ?November 17, 2022 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #21393561Participant
Well like COVID. There are a lot of ignorant people in the frum world about mental illness and effective treatment and we don’t need quacks running around.November 17, 2022 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2139396
1, So who decides who is a quack? The medical and “mental health” industry who are profiting of the billions pouring into the industries by people brainwashed that they can “change” their gender, that popping pills will cure their emptiness and unhappiness, that pills can pills can make people calm and fulfilled?
Perhaps you are the one believing in quacks? You are allowed to make the decision you feel is good for you and so can anyone else decide for themselves. This is freedom.November 17, 2022 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2139407
personal health is just that, personal. Do whatever you want, and I will do what I wantNovember 17, 2022 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #2139435
There are kids who literally could not function in a school environment unless they were medicated, after which they thrived.
There are adults who cannot find the energy to pull themselves out of bed every day and went on to live, happy, fulfilled lives once they found the right medication.
And there are literally millions of similar cases, from schizophrenia (where people have disturbing hallucinations) to manic disorders (where people cannot control their actions caused by powerful emotions).
Are you saying these people shouldn’t get the help they need?November 17, 2022 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2139622
Yserb, medication is very necessary, but speak to anyone who’s gone through a mental health issue and they’ll tell you that it’s just a starting point. Almost no one pops a pill and automatically has a “fulfilling life” nor do they “thrive”, possibly with the exception of ADD kids who take stimulants…a direct, clear response is common, and I’ve seen it in my students.November 17, 2022 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2139632lakewhutParticipant
Philosopher: so how would you handle a client who’s convinced he’s a different gender than he was born with? A therapists job is to help people cope, they aren’t rabbis. A person can get a therapist from a religious perspective and one with a secular perspective.November 17, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2139725Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Avira, from the little I know, some conditioned mentioned above indeed require medication, while those who diagnosed with ADD would often benefit from other approaches. I do not mean that there is no ADD, just that symptoms are such that it is easy to direct bothersome kids into that category, and maybe, as you are saying, kids respond to the medication, it became accepted. My humble suggestion would be, unless there is clear danger to someone, try behavioral approaches, mussar, improving home and school environment before going to meds.November 18, 2022 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2139809
Of course there are real mental illnesses. However the mental “health” industry keeps on expanding the definition of mental disorders. 57% of young adults in the US aged 17-28 are currently diagnosed with mental disorder! That is insane!
The reason why so many people are depressed and full of anxiety is because we do not appreciate the gifts that God gave us. The more we appreciate what we have and the more we realize that we are not in control and that God runs the world, the more joyous we are are. The problem is that this society always focuses on what we are missing. There are people who we cannot judge for being depressed, their lives are absolutely incredibly hard, but for the average depressed person or person who has anxiety, this happens because God is not a part, or perhaps only a small part, of their lives.
I think the majority of kids with ADHD is a result of sitting far too long listening to oftentimes very boring teachers. They are not stimulated enough, classes are too boring. Also, some kids are always on a sugar high, they don’t eat normal, healthy food and exist on nosh so yes, they will be hyper.November 18, 2022 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2139810
All of a sudden we have this phenomena where the percentage of people thinking they are the opposite gender is surging… this is due to brainwashing of teachers in schools, brainwashing of the media and entertainment industry and to top it all off, they are encouraged by the people in the “mental health experts” that they are indeed the “in the wrong body”. So you have kids literally chopping off their healthy organs and kids being given hormone blockers and developing permanent health issues because of those blockers.November 18, 2022 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2140113
@philosopher The surge in ADD/ADHD diagnosis is a thing of the past. Doctors have recognized for the last 20 years that not every hyper kid has an attention disorder and Ritalin and Adderal were overprescriped.
If you speak with a modern psychiatrist, they will probably echo similar things to what you are saying. Medication for mental illness is usually the last line of defense. Doctors, psychologists, and other therapists usually go for months of therapy and only medicate if the patient is showing little improvement (or if the patient has a very clear diagnosed and dangerous condition).November 19, 2022 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2140128
Yserb, i think it depends on the doctor – like all professions, there are some who are quick to operate, or in this case medicate, and there are others who use it as a last resort.
It seems that doctors are very quick to prescribe puberty blockers and hormone therapy for gender confused young people – i realize I’m getting that info from right wing news sources, but i looked up the information that they’re basing it on, and it does seem to be standard practice, and is being pushed by many advocacy groups.November 19, 2022 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #21401301Participant
Philosopher let’s say you have a client whose born male and thinks he’s a female and says he feels really depressed and wants to end his life, how would you treat him? There are quacks in every profession but the job of a therapist isn’t to be a Rabbi. A Rabbi gives moral guidance, a therapist tries to help you live your life. Mussar doesn’t work for someone who isn’t balanced.November 19, 2022 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #2140316
First of all the classes of drugs you are calling “psychotic” meds are called antipsychotic drugs, atypical antipsychotics, ssri, snri, stimulants, anti-anxiety/ benzodiazepines etc… calling an entire group of drugs “psychotic” is demeaning and takes away from your argument.
To begin, statistical data shows Jews of Ashkenazi descent have a higher occurrence of specific mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder. These conditions are very often treated with psychotropic drugs. While behavioral therapy is helpful in conjunction, when someone is suffering a mental health disorder there is an actual change in brain chemistry and there should be no shame in treating it with the respect and seriousness it deserves.
ADHD is a neurological condition, it occurs when the brain produces too little dopamine. Different people present differently as a result of the deficiency due to various factors not excluding person specific levels of dopamine and other external factors. There are other non stimulant drugs that work for ADHD. Creating black and white scenarios for individuals with unique chemical make ups is not helpful in the long term. Some people feel at school or work they need a ADHD specific supplement and on a non work day they can do without. Others need supplements on a daily basis and there are some that don’t do well with any of the meds and need to work around their personal needs. We are all different and therefore need different things in our lives. There is nothing wrong with taking medication for diabetes or a heart condition and the same applies to mental health disorders. We are all imperfect and doing our own best in this complex world. Judging or making generalizations on groups of individuals is childish and very unhelpful.November 19, 2022 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #2140317
Regarding the idea of transgender individuals, I really doubt you had a conversation with individuals who represent as Trans. Maybe that’s an inaccurate assumption, but that’s just my guess. It’s not simply deciding one day you are the opposite gender, it’s a lot more complex than that. Belittling an entire group of individuals, just because you don’t agree is quite petty.November 19, 2022 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #2140406
Peacho- you are correct that belittling people who are suffering is always wrong. That doesn’t change the fact that it is assur to have such a surgery and it is the mishandling by the medical and mental health professionals that is the problem.November 19, 2022 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2140413Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Ysserb, good to hear. I looked up a couple of research articles and I see that ADHD diagnoses increased from 6% to 10% of all kids between 1990s and 2018. (14% boys and 6% girls; poor 13%, rich 9%; up to 11y.o – 8%, 12-17 13%).
The first ref below mentions that UK rates are also increasing while being lower, shyly not mentioning the numbers .. UK estimates I can find are 3-5% of children as of 2013 (estimates in population, not actually treated) – so, something strange might be happening all across US – school incentives? bad parenting? overdiagnosis?
1. Twenty-Year Trends in Diagnosed Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder Among US Children and Adolescents, 1997-2016 Guifeng Xu, MD; Lane Strathearn, MBBS, FRACP, PhD; Buyun Liu, MD, PhD; Binrang Yang, MD, PhD;Wei Bao,MD, PhDNovember 19, 2022 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2140417
Should be noted that the prohibition of sterilizing people applies to non jews as well.November 19, 2022 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2140415
Peacho – the mental health community and the secular world at large is inching towards an ideology where gender is completely in the mind, and that transgender treatments (“gender affirming care”) is being labeled not to treat a disorder, but as a viable option for anyone who decides that they want to be a different gender.
Many people suffer from gender confusion, and no one is belittling that struggle, but what can be belittled – and should be – is how the disorder is being treated and the results thereof. Leitzanusa d’avodah zara, mocking idol worship, includes mockery of all things Hashem hates. And people who mutilate themselves and cause themselves to be sterile – a horrible, selfish affront to “lesheves yatzarta”(Hashem created the world to be inhabited) are reshoim, no matter what led them to that path.
Child molesters don’t wake up one morning and decide to abuse children, and they almost always don’t want it – they struggle, and if they fail, they are regarding (rightfully) as reshoim. Aside from a “it doesn’t hurt anyone” knee jerk reaction, what is really the difference? They’re both reshoim whose mental health struggles led them to do abominable acts.November 19, 2022 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2140460
Wow, you started off right on target. But what a convoluted, twisted crazy conclusion.November 20, 2022 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2140582
I didn’t want to get involved in a discussion about gender but here we are. My two cents on this are that the medical community has been bullied by certain individuals and groups to accept some things when there is little to no evidence behind it. Like the whole nonsense about “non-binary genders” with people saying “my pronouns are they/them” or whatever. It basically started ten years ago as a fad among teens and younger adults. Now, doctors are ostracized if they dare go against the idea that a six year old child whos parents insist “they don’t identify as a boy or girl” isn’t just a little confused kid.November 20, 2022 10:50 am at 10:50 am #2140589
Wow, it is frightening to see so many frum Jews claiming that there is such a thing that children feel they are in the wrong body…They feel that because they are brainwashed in school and by the entertainment industry and often parents pushing it on them! It is honestly scary to read this thread to see so many in the frum world infected with this propaganda. And just why are these kids having their organs chopped off and hormone blockers that cause numerous medical issues, including most often making these children infertile later in life, how is that “therapy” How is that helping these children?! OMG, I can’t believe what I’m reading on this frum forum!!!
Lol about Ashkenazim descendants have “a higher occurrence of specific mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder”. Shtissim! What about the general, non-Jewish American population where the majority of youth is diagnosed with some sort of mental disorder? They don’t have “a higher occurrence of specific mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder””? This “higher occurrence” of mental disorder is the mental disorder of the West that seeks to make make every human condition a mental disorder. Now, yes, there are are real mental issues out there requiring medication but the vast majority of people “diagnosed” with mental disorders are absolutely completely overblown.November 20, 2022 10:58 am at 10:58 am #2140653
Yserbius, no. The medical and mental health industry is for the most part pursuing this because they are raking in millions and millions of dollars. Many hospitals and doctors have admitted to this. And besides, I know it is hard to face, but they are evil. Anyone who gives hormone blockers or hormone replacement therapy or chops off health organs from children, teens or even adults is totally evil, no excuses. This is a very large part of the medical and mental health industry.
It is about $$$$$$ and power and the gullible people are gobbling it all up. This is the exact same industry that is “diagnosing” normal people with a huge array of “mental disorders” and handing out psychotic pills like candy. I have personally seen what it does to many of our youth who end up totally dysfunctional and “out of it” because they cannot think straight. These drugs numb feelings alright, it numbs the entire brain. There are REASONS why people are depressed, it’s important to get to the real issues and requires major work on the part of the depressed individual, but we cannot have this, rather the doctor and the patient wants an easy way out…which doesn’t make the patient less depressed in the long run and just adds to his mental, emotional, spiritual and now due to the pill, physical problems as well.November 20, 2022 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2140657
I hear that your belief system goes against the idea of gender transition and dysphoria in general. That’s your prerogative. It’s also their prerogative to act according to their belief system. If you have a problem with how the health system is dealing with it, take it up with them. Maybe make an appointment with members in the health system not just from the orthodox community and explain yourself and your views, you might come to a different conclusion or help others see a specific problem etc. But the bashing that I see and hear in this community towards various demographics is shameful to say the least.
On the note of halacha and Avoda Zara, I’m no scholar. I do know halacha is almost never black and white and when such issues do arise in this community (because they most probably will) each individual will do what they need to do with or without halachic guidance. There is nothing anyone can do about it. At the end of the day, this is America and year 2022 we are not Evangelical Christians and a whole lot of rhetoric I’ve been seeing on Jewish sites is very much coming right out of their textbook.November 20, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2140662
Regarding gender dysphoria, based on the comments I’m guessing the conversationalists here have had little to no interaction with individuals who are dealing with this. It’s a complex issue and I believe the media presentation of the issue is partially to blame for some exaggerated views. Most individuals with gender dysphoria do not just wake up and decide to transition on a whim. It’s a complicated situation. I’m pretty sure a large amount of individuals who are trans wish they could wake up and be ok with their biological sexes. Right now there are no proven non invasive therapies to help these individuals (specifically in reducing the high levels of suicidality). If you want to work on a humane treatment for these individuals, be my guest.
We scream this is assur, but why don’t we talk about the things that we can change? For example, creating an international database in which rabbeim/other individuals who molest kids are listed so that when they move to another area, they don’t land up in another school/ camp/daycare hurting more kids? Or talking to young girls and boys about body acceptance instead of all the shame tactics used by tznius monitors? I mean there are so many things we can do to change things but instead we cry about all the perceived wrongs in the secular world.November 20, 2022 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2140684
peacho – I’m sorry, nothing is more disturbing than your attitude toward halacha.
You are complaining about 2 seperate issues here, the halachos involved and the way mentally ill people are treated.
For starters, Philosopher is the highly emotional ranting type and is yelling some party line ideas from her teachings/learnings that have much truth and have also proven very dangerous to many. It is being presented as an all out issue whne it really is not one. Avirah, on the other hand, has proven in several recent comments to just spew from ignorance even when admitting he’s clueless on the topic.
I work with trans individuals and children. I also have had training in the mental health field. I have also had to take hours of sensitivity training for understanding trans individuals. NO, I am not all knowing, an expert or a mental health counselor and I won’t pretend to be.
You complain that people speak disrespectfully about individuals suffering. You are appalled that people are insisting that halacha be followed and then advocate for people to do whatever needs to be done regardless of halacha. Do you see the problem here? You are correct that people should be respected and people who are suffering should be cared for, supported and helped. But your second point deserves no respect at all. And you tying the two together makes your argument less valid.
We scream this is assur, but why don’t we talk about the things that we can change?
This is exactly right. But most people like to just scream. Why you continue this sentence to mention a database for pedophiles is confusing. While I would sign up to volunteer 24/7 on such a database to keep pedophiles away from humans, you seem to just be angry. with good reason but this is totally off point.
Or talking to young girls and boys about body acceptance instead of all the shame tactics used by tznius monitors?
This would probably save thousands of lives, mostly spiritually but also physically.
I mean there are so many things we can do to change things but instead we cry about all the perceived wrongs in the secular world.
I don’t think there is much of anything we can do to change the secular world. And as YU has shown (and several posters above), we are struggling with frum people being beholden to halacha in this area when I would have been shocked to hear that this problem seeped in so strongly in the first place.
One obligation we have that we do a lousy job at is screaming out loudly in defense of Torah without trashing the individuals who are suffering.
Hashem YishmorNovember 20, 2022 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2140683
peach – if you admit that you’re not well versed in halacha, maybe keep your views on judaism, coming from a non-educated perspective, out of the discussion?
You’ve provided not a single point to counter which can be falsified, just suggestions that the yeshivos need to be more in line with in vogue non-jewish social trends, and that it’s 2022, and that we’re copying fundamentalist christians.
Not much to say except we follow the torah and mesorah, and not whatever goyim decide is better in 2022. Perhaps instead of accusing the people who know halacha of following christians, you should stop following social media and liberal ideas and learn the sources that come up when halacha-trained people discuss them?November 20, 2022 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2140706
Syag, what connection is there between body image and tznius “shaming” lessons? The two have virtually nothing to do with each other. Having busha, shame, in one’s exposure, is healthy, Jewish, and human. So is being comfortable in one’s body and not thinking that they need to be a certain weight or shape to be “good.” It sounds more like peach is just saying that “tznius bad” “body positivity good”November 20, 2022 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2140807
@AviraDeArah I think @SyagLchochma is getting at the overzealous way in which some people teach tzniyus. Like there’s an old story written by a Yiddish maskil about a girl who was being dragged by Cossacks and pins her skirt to her legs so that she bleeds to death rather than be un-tzniyus. It was written, like the Chelm stories, as a way to sneer at those crazy fundamentalist frummies. Unfortunately, I’ve heard that there are places that teach it as a lesson to aspire to.November 20, 2022 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2140819
Yserb, those “places” are quite many, and maskilim took that story, which is far older (sefardim say it about suleikah, way before the haskalah) and made fun of it, the same way they made fun of the kohen meshuach milchama, where only the chofetz chaim and rav elchonon were left to fight – rav boruch ber in fact, said to the chofetz chaim that he would fight the Russian army with just him, but the chofetz chaim said that the time had already passed(horav hadomeh lemalaach)
The girl(s) in those stories would have died anyway from being dragged by the animals; she wouldn’t bleed to death from skin level abrasions; there were no arteries involved.
It is definitely a lofty level to worry about tznius in the face of death. It’s only funny to someone who is very distant from yiras shomayim.November 20, 2022 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2140820
Even in that comparison, in your view, what relationship is thete between body shaming and tznius? Peach was just ramblingNovember 20, 2022 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2140832
Yserb, these comments make me have a lot of kavanah when i say that Hashem is melamed Torah le’amo yisroel… When we act like Hashem’s people, we’re zocheh that He’ll teach us His Torah. Otherwise, people can study texts and books, and be very distant from Him, living in spiritual ruin while being able to rattle off pesukim and mishnayos. Min hasafeh el hachutz. No meaning, no internalization, no attempt at approaching the seforim as the revealed word of G-d.
I pity those who live in such darkness. On chanukah we remember those who lived the same way in Greece; they studied, and knew as much as the tzadikim in terms of volume, but they were misyavnim. They didn’t want to dedicate their hearts to Hashem. They wanted to think and do as they please, without listening to the chachamim.November 20, 2022 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2140833
Yserb, when i used to sell Esrogim, i noticed something. When i spent entire days checking, discussing and selling them, when i closed my eyes at night the images of the Esrogim and the words of my discussions filled my head. Normally, when i put my head down, the words of the last tosfos i learned and the voice of my last chavrusa would be in my head, and it pained me that during those days, my mind was so taken by something else, even though it was a mitzvah.
Yserb, when you put your head down at night, what do you see in your mind, and what do you hear?November 20, 2022 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2140884
@AvriaDeArah On that we will have to disagree. I know of few good women who agree with the more extreme ways in which tzniyus is sometimes taught. It’s not Torah, it’s not yiras Shomayim, it’s just scare tactics by lousy teachers who don’t know how to explain something in a way that makes it beautiful. I don’t know how much Gemara I would have learned if my Rebbeim would have focused on “Learn Torah or BURN IN GEHINNOM FOREVER!!” instead of instilling the geshmak and beauty of it.
I don’t know if there’s a connection between body acceptance and gender confusion. I don’t. But telling kids that they don’t have to starve themselves or work out like a Yivoni to be beautiful is something most Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs teach.November 21, 2022 10:11 am at 10:11 am #2140947
There you have it ladies and gentlemen.
Syag has “mental health training” and has responded to my emotianl rant” that he works with “trans”…So there you go from someonw who was “tained” in the field of “mental health”. Hashem yerachim that you read this on a frum website. No one can change their gender which is encoded in their DNA! Of course I’m emotional and angry because they are people like you fardrying a kup for our youth Hashem yishmor that we are here on a “frum” website and we have someone posting such disgusting ideology. Moshiach has to come now before we reach the 60th level of tuma! This is horrifying!
But you definitely are proof that those who have training in the “mental health” industry has gone insane themselves.
Syag, Please explain how a person can be “trans” if they can’t change their DNA. Please explain how such a big percentage of youth in the USA -57%- have mental disorders and please explain how the “mental health” industry is making those people better if those numbers, as well as suicides, keep on increasing.
Honestly that I’m reading this here is nuts. It’s worse than I thought. I thought my speaking about the supposed “trans” situation will not be relevant on this forum and look where we are. We need moshiach now or we are doomed!November 21, 2022 10:32 am at 10:32 am #2140953
You obviously don’t read posts before commenting.
I gave my “exposure” to the topic because the poster wasn’t willing to hear anyone with no exposure. It was a reference for the poster to know that even having that exposure did not make me agree with him.
Regarding the content, if you aren’t gonna read what I wrote, don’t comment on it. Such is the social graces of an online forum.November 21, 2022 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2140975
I am not advocating anything regarding anything. I am simply making a statement that people will do what they feel they need to do to function in society whether or not halachic guidance is involved. That is a reality and that’s not something anybody here can change. I believe investing our heavy emotions towards areas that we can change would be a healthier investment rather than putting others down etc.
I mentioned the topic of pedophile database because @avira brought that up as an equivalent issue to people who present as Trans. If they are equal I would assume there’d be equal amounts of anger and desire for change in the other area as well – but it’s all quiet. And yes I am angry by the inaction of the community at large in addressing this issue. I would hope that anyone who has kids or knows kids who are currently in our education system would be equally angered by the inaction.
Regarding those that don’t understand the effect of many schools tznius training (I know definitely in Lakewood), I’m glad you have your rosy view of tznius training. Good for you. Shaming and torturing someone are two different situations. The schools in my area generally use the shaming tactics, like measuring 8 year olds skirts and sending them to the principal if they grew and it’s not “long enough” or telling teens that their top tells guys “open me”. Or the sales ladies telling you it’s too small because you can see a body form. The list goes on, but in general it’s a lot of shaming, objectifying, and guilting of young girls. You don’t have to tell someone their too big etc to make someone ashamed of their body.
Anyway I wish you clarity in your line of work.November 21, 2022 11:35 am at 11:35 am #2140981
Peacho- I am not arguing with your claim that people are hurting. I am not arguing your claim that some educators need to find a new way to educate. But you are 100% wrong if you are claiming that halacha is disposable or optional. I can’t tell if you are saying that people don’t regard halacha, or if you are saying that people don’t have an obligation to regard halacha. Halacha is not out there as an option.
You are also naive/uninformed/mistaken if you are claiming that living out the fantasy of being a different gender helps anyone function, helps them feel less suicidal or solves any of their pain.
I’m guessing you yourself may be the one who feels that the community has done so much damage to some that anything they oppose is the right answer. It’s not so. Some people are just ignorant, some people are just jerks but the mission is to separate True Torah from the deviant self proclaimed servants.
I’m sorry for your pain, really am, but discarding halacha is not the answer.November 21, 2022 11:37 am at 11:37 am #2140984lakewhutParticipant
Phil you’re oversimplifying the mental health profession. That’s it.November 21, 2022 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2140986
Peacho- I would like to agree that we need to find a better way to instill self respect in kids/people. I’ve done what I could for my own kids but am at a loss on what we can do on a grand scale.
As an aside, I have found that liberal work environment to be so draining spiritually that I left my workplace for a much less liberal environment. Nobody bashes the others, they just don’t condone it.November 21, 2022 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2141001
peach – what if a child wore a skirt that covered her knees in the 3rd grade, but proceeded to wear it in the 4th grade? would the school not be justified in saying that it was too short because the student grew?
if a child grows in the middle of the year, is that a heter to let them dress untznius? why does that equal “shaming”? are the schools saying that gaining weight itself is bad, or are they saying that they need to dress in ways that adapt to their shape? is it more the girls themselves who are under the impression that gaining weight is bad, and the social pressure of being skinny…comes from they themselves (and of course their homes and society at large)?
as for not reacting to abuse – that was a valid claim 10 years ago. It’s not being swept under the rug anymore; the frum community wasn’t far behind the rest of the world’s movement towards exposing and punishing perpetrators. I agree that having a database is a good idea, in fact. I also think it’s a good idea to distance proven offenders (and a judge saying so isn’t enough) from children by any means necessary, and require such people to carry medicine on their person at all times which kills their taavah.
bringing out how men view womens’ clothing is important, because, like it or not (and im sure you dont like it) halacha mandates tznius, in part, because of lifnei iver. Women are punished, severely so, for causing men to sin with their eyes. Before you jump on “mind your business” – halacha doesn’t say that. It’s wrong, and it’s an example of megaleh panim batorah shelo kahalacha. The poskim are crystal clear that a woman is held accountable for men sinning if she dressed provocatively. Therefore, informing girls of this responsibility, and making them aware of how men see certain styles which to the girl herself might seem innocent, is a part of chinuch. It’s not objectification, it’s building awareness of how they are seen.
On the contrary, letting our girls dress in ways that make them seen as objects to men (i.e., your “open me” example) is objectification.
but but but…why dont you tell men not to look at it that way?
Why don’t you tell men not to enjoy steak, or women not to enjoy shopping? Hashem understands the natural desires of people and they’re not evil; quite the opposite, the desire for procreation keeps the world going and is integral to forming a marriageNovember 21, 2022 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2141006
syag, once a person disregards the torah’s hashkofah about tznius, or any other issue, and opens themselves up to foreign influence and to see what goyim have to say, they will ultimately throw away halachos which don’t comport with their newfound ideologies and opinions.
This is why we need to step up in-house college programs, and make sure teachers are genuinely frum. It’s also why we need to take a stronger stance against social media, which is infiltrating our homes and burning them up from the inside.November 25, 2022 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2142288frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Phil – you’re a troll or a fool. Either way you are being mechalel shem shamayim. Lives are saved every day by use of antipsychotics. Frum culture already shames the use of these necessary meds too much. What you are doing is perpetuating a mentality that causes so much suffering and is the antithesis of genuine Judaism. Shame on you.November 27, 2022 11:36 am at 11:36 am #2142551
frumnotyeshivish, your comment takes me back to the times where we had the covid-19 poison shot debates. I’m mechallel shem shamayim…lol. Do you have something concrete to add? Can you explain why 57% of of our country’s youth are diagnosed with mental disorders and why the rates of suicide and depression are rising when the mental “health’ industry is bigger than ever? Can you explain why kids and teens are being brainwashed by “mental health experts” to get hormone blockers and chop off healthy organs?
Or have you simply been brainwashed, or are you a “mental health expert” yourself, and not bothering to look into the facts but conveniently shouting that what I’m saying is the antithesis of Judaism”?
I have not not said that anti-psychotics don’t save lives. They may save lives. I have said that it could help for SOME people. But not for the vast majority who are given these pills; they cause more issues and the reasons for why they a person has “mental health disorders” and the work that needs to be done to repair those disorders, are all being ignored.
Your comments have no substance at all and are empty rhetoric.November 27, 2022 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2142604
@philoposer, even worse then silencing the pychotic medication debate, they are trying to silence all medication debate, I was at a wedding recently and and started a conversation on the merits of Preperation H vs Tucks and everyone wanted to silent the debate. At a different wedding I want to have the debate about Rid vs Nix and everyone wanted to silent the debate.
This is terrible.November 29, 2022 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2143390The little I knowParticipant
The discussion here has morphed into something embarrassing. Just a few notes:
1. The environment/culture is constantly changing. So is the reaction to it. Mental illness can easily be getting worse, without regard to the growth of the “industry” of therapists and medications.
2. The lay person often wants to appear more educated and knowledgeable than he/she really is. You may theorize why this is so. But we do observe it almost everywhere. The comments about where and when to use medications are laughable. None of the commenters here have the training, experience, and expertise to know anything about it. The casual remarks border on the comical.
3. Halacha is misused by many, with priorities that halacha accounts for being ignored, and chumros being considered mainstream halacha that is relevant to all. Our Chazal guide us to have a Rav that provides guidance. We should all have someone that can guide our Avodas Hashem so that we don’t treat minhagim and halachos in a manner that either underplays or overplays their true significance.
4. All halachos and mitzvos exist for our betterment. Ideally, we should be thrilled and proud of our adherence to every mitzvah and halacha. This includes tznius and many other things. Presenting them with a fire and brimstone approach is not true chinuch. It might be bullying, it might be control, but not chinuch. Ask our Gedolei Yisroel. Read up on how the master mechanchim and Gedolei Yisroel addressed the subject of chinuch. There is a groundswell of such seforim, many in English as well. There are even several role models that can be studied for how to abandon the fire and brimstone, and thereby actually bring our younger generation to a place where they love Hashem, His Torah, and mitzvos.
5. Mental illness really exists. It is ignorant to dismiss everything as bad middos. And there are conditions for which medication is the most important intervention. Yes, many feel stigma regarding medication. But medication gets a bad rap by those who know nothing about it. I leave diagnostics to the professionals, and the prescribing of medications to those trained to do so. Psychiatry has grown to be more focused on medication use, since the number of fields of trained professionals to conduct therapy has grown. We might debate whether there has been enough training, but that would be separate thread. Basically, running around and proclaiming that these meds are being overused, underused, or misused makes me think, “Pardon, your ignorance is showing”. The field of mental health has progressed greatly in many ways, and much more is understood than just a few decades ago. Like much else in life, it has fallen under influences of culture, where ideologies that are foreign have affected judgment. For the most part, the majority of issues facing the mental health field have little to no relevance to the woke culture, and remain mostly scientific. And I leave the rest to the experts. I fail to see any of the above comments reflecting expertise.November 29, 2022 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2143405
TLIK – If you aren’t going to mention why your word is any more valuable than everyone elses it might be more productive to be more specific about what you are yelling about because calling everyone fools is hardly an experienced, intelligent or professional manner of making a point. I was very clear that I myself was not a mental health professional. But until you know that some posters have not been dealing with mental illness for decades in terms of their own, their parent’s, their child’s or another loved one, meeting quacks, experts and the lowest of the low, to say nothing of wading thru the sewage that is our mental health system, you have no business making the statement that “None of the commenters here have the training, experience, and expertise to know anything about it.”November 29, 2022 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #2143415
added – not disregarding your points, just your presentationNovember 29, 2022 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2143420
What works better, preparation H or Tucks?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.