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- This topic has 45 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 8 months ago by 🍫Syag Lchochma.
September 14, 2020 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1901391
Maybe it’s a little early to think about it but has there any discussion what Simchas Torah will look like this year? I would imagine that amid talk to shorten Rosh Hashanah davening by reducing singing and drashos, that there would be a major curtailment of hakafos and dancing. In general, I would support the minimum of one hakafa and just the person holding the Torah alone–outside preferably. It pains me that many shuls I have frequented behave as if there is no more virus, but indeed people are still getting sick. Ksiva v’chasima tovahSeptember 14, 2020 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1901473ToiParticipant
“In general, I would support the minimum of one hakafa and just the person holding the Torah alone–outside preferably.”
Duly noted, we’ll consider it when deciding.September 14, 2020 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1901515
@Toi there is a big suggestion box in the back of the room.September 14, 2020 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1901520lowerourtuition11210Participant
Every shule should decide on there own what they should do. One size decisions does not fit all in the covid 19 situation.September 14, 2020 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1901615
The hakofos (First with the Four Species and then with The Writ.) Is symbolic of our unity surrounding the Torah. And reaching a pinnacle with us carrying the Torah into our orbit.
After the events of this year, I will be staying by my seat. Do you have enough integrity to join or stop me?September 15, 2020 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1901687avnerkParticipant
The Brisker rav zt”l said a sick man can get better from Yom Kippur !! We hope Yom Kippur will cure it all and we can dance even better than a normal year celebrating the Torah and the end of corona.September 15, 2020 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1901689
@n0m, how about this? you will do what is best for you and everyone will do what is best for them. Wow what a novel conceptSeptember 15, 2020 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1901720takahmamashParticipant
A Simchat Torah hashkama minyan that I used to attend back in the states did once around for each hakafa, and finished hakafot in about 10 minutes. One year the Rav of the shule came down, and insisted on extending the hakafa he was there for. The minyan attendees became pretty upset. As for this year, I’m not going, and since I’m in the states, it’s not a chag for me anyway.September 15, 2020 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1901754
Common saychel: The problem with your approach is that what may be best for you is not necessarily best for people you come in contact with. I heard recently that someone attended a wedding where several people were tested positive. One of those attendees didn’t tell anyone and as a result, apparently gave the virus to an elderly relative. So it’s not just about youSeptember 15, 2020 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1901777
Moshe- thank you for saying it first! From other CS posts we see as well that that attitude is a running theme. I do have a very hard time understanding how someone who tested positive could go to a simcha. Are you sure it really happened? BH I don’t think I know such a person.September 15, 2020 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1901790
@ Syag & Moshe, I never tested positive and have antibody counts that is off the charts, I donated Covid Plasma six times and the blood banks keep calling me to donate again and again [ i am not going to get in this whole juvenile argument if you can get it twice because its pure speculation],
You want to stay in a underground bunker and shiver be my guest, but don’t try to shove your OPINION down my throat.
PS I plan to celebrate the Torah and life for hours and in close companySeptember 15, 2020 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1901792
I don’t live in a bunker, we don’t even ask guests in our house to wear masks, and have been happy to host people at our house if *they* feel comfortable. That is not the same as having a two-year-old view of “each for himself”. If you are actually 18 as you sound, great, looking forward to you reaching maturity. If you are older than that, oh well. You seem to be missing some key pieces of what it means to be part of a community.September 15, 2020 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1901830
Rav Aaron Glatt who is a Rav and head of infecteous diseases at a major Hospital (and the Rav many have looked towards for advice because he really is an expert) has said He was asked about such a case of someone who attended minyans who was positive and didn’t want to tell anyone because he was afraid they would throw him out of the minyanSeptember 15, 2020 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1901829
@syag, actually I am a grandparent several times over, its immaturity to try to tell people how to run the life’s.
As to being part of the community, I donated plasma six times, can you say the same?September 15, 2020 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1901823
I heard this wedding story with specific details.
Also young people vacationed while positive.
And people fled to Florida in March. And returned with the virus in June.
People go to simchos with the flu etc. Why does this surprise you?September 15, 2020 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1901851
zdad – they should be worried about that, they don’t belong there
CS – let’s say I probably gave plasma twice as many times as you have. Short of that, you have only proven my point, not yours.
Nom – why does it surprise me? Firstly because most of those “stories” are baloney if you bother looking into them, secondly, I have been trying not to pull the out of towner card but I have no aquaintences who display this type of behavior so I have no reason to believe it actually happened without a heck of a lot more information And third, why should I accept more stuff you are saying when some of the things you claim that I myself said weren’t as you stated them.September 15, 2020 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1901926
You just accused yourself of what you accuse me. You have been talking to yourself this entire thread. Other posters read your post. And respond according to their own thoughts. Because they cannot read your mind. And they have their own.
Maybe you are not following who said what from the beginning. But I am. You are engaged in did-you-say/did-you-mean across multiple threads with multiple posters.September 15, 2020 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1901931
No clue what you mean but okay.September 16, 2020 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1902144OtherTzadParticipant
If someone is positive for covid, and goes around without telling anyone, they are likely considered a murderer.
If you went around and find out afterwards that you’re positive, dont be embarrassed to tell others that you were near about your positive test. It could save livesSeptember 16, 2020 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1902151
ExactlySeptember 16, 2020 10:16 am at 10:16 am #19021682scentsParticipant
“If someone is positive for covid, and goes around without telling anyone, they are likely considered a murderer.”
Would you say the same for other viral illnesses such as the flu?September 16, 2020 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1902176
@Syag, I have antibodies and so do my wife and kids, My FIL wants to wear his mask to shul
INSPITE of him having gotten covid, that fine with me, he make his decision and I make mine.
You want to lock yourself in some underground bunker, that is fine with me, you want to wear a mask and watch from a distance I am fine with that too the choice is yours.
Before I jet ski, go whitewater rafting or snowboarding I know of the risk that are involved.
If you don’t feel 100% comfortable in a room full of dancing people on Yom Tov, stay at home, that fine with me.
I plan to thank Hashem for the Torah and dance throughout Yom Tov, seesu vsimchu bsimchas torahSeptember 16, 2020 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1902184
You’re obviously too busy typing to read the posts you’re responding toSeptember 16, 2020 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1902211
Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevin Zeh L’ZehSeptember 16, 2020 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1902324
@Zahavsdad, yep and I plan to dancing wildly with all my fellow mispallim to that song.
BTW the words are kol yisroel not kol bnei yisroel.
PS if you feel the urge to sit home on simchas torah and sing aycha yoshva bodah no one is stopping youSeptember 16, 2020 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1902329MenoParticipant
*Points out someone’s misquoting of a passuk*
*Goes on to misquote a passuk*
I bet Hashem loves your Simchas Torah dancing.September 16, 2020 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1902353
* bodud, it was a typoSeptember 16, 2020 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1902378
If a person has the virus they or anyone who lives with them should not leave the house. If they do it is extremely surprising, and those who think it isn’t are the problem. On the other hand, while everyone takes their own level of precautions there is no way to ensure everyone around you is safe to their standards. The reality is that everyone has their own understanding of what is acceptable, and each person will stretch their personal precautions when it comes to things they “must” do or places they “must” be. If a person is extra cautious they should not go places expecting everyone to be like them. The key is simply this: in general when seeing people, maintain a distance. In specific situations see what’s happening and decide if you want to be there or not, because you can’t change what people are doing.September 16, 2020 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1902393se2015Participant
Believe it or not, there are people who really are afraid to get sick, but would go to shul, for example, if other people took it seriously.
If you are of the opinion that masks and distancing are unnecessary, what gives you the right to impose your opinion on other people. You are choosing to ignore public health guidelines at their expense.
This superficially libertarian “live and let live” attitude in this context ignores the fact that your choices impact other people. It’s not like sky diving where you assume the risk. You are forcing other people to choose between assuming your risk, or in the alternative, to avoid behavior they have every right to engage in.September 16, 2020 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1902430
If a person has the virus they or anyone who lives with them should not leave the house. If they do it is extremely surprising, and those who think it isn’t are the problem. On the other hand, while everyone takes their own level of precautions there is no way to ensure everyone around you is safe to their standards. The reality is that everyone has their own understanding of what is acceptable, and each person will stretch their personal precautions when it comes to things they “must” do or places they “must” be. If a person is extra cautious they should not go places expecting everyone to be like them. The key is simply this: in general when seeing people, maintain a distance. In specific situations see what’s happening and decide if you want to be there or not, because you can’t change what people are doing.
There are plenty of good reasons not to wear a mask that would not effect others. (Recently recovered and antibodies, tested negative a few days before and haven’t been anywhere, plan to maintain a six foot distance etc.) If a shul requires masks then you must wear a mask. If they don’t then one should not be forced to wear one. And if that makes some feel uncomfortable they can either go around asking people why they aren’t wearing it to determine if it’s safe or not take the risk and find another shul.September 17, 2020 9:51 am at 9:51 am #1902578
“There are plenty of good reasons not to wear a mask that would not effect others. (Recently recovered and antibodies, tested negative a few days before and haven’t been anywhere, plan to maintain a six foot distance etc.) If a shul requires masks then you must wear a mask. If they don’t then one should not be forced to wear one. And if that makes some feel uncomfortable they can either go around asking people why they aren’t wearing it to determine if it’s safe or not take the risk and find another shul.”
Exactly my point, There is a shul in my neighborhood that is outdoor only with six foot distance and everyone must wear masks and gloves and bring own siddur, down the block is a shul that is operating normal. No one is forcing anyone to go anyplace, its ones choice.
Can I get Corona in spite of my having a high antibody count? who knows, but I can also drive down the highway and get hit head on by an 18 wheeler
Ch”v. EditedSeptember 17, 2020 10:10 am at 10:10 am #1902612
If someone R’L wanted to go drive to McDonalds on Shabbos and eat a bacon Double Cheeseburger. I bet everyone would do whatever it takes to stop them, they would never use “Personal Choice” as excuse to avoid the issueSeptember 17, 2020 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1902630Shimon NodelParticipant
2scents, 100% yes! If someone has the flu and mixes with other people that person is a rotzeach. I’m surprised you had to ask that question thinking it was a point to prove your argument. PshitaSeptember 17, 2020 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1902621
@zahavsdad, a closer analogy would be someone drinking chol akum, some hold it is muttar and some hold it is ussar.
Or better yet, some people would rather daven biychus then daven in a open orthodox place with “Female rabbis”, gay marriage is given a mazel tov and adherence to certain halacha is questionable, and some people find it great.September 17, 2020 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1902634Shimon NodelParticipant
I can’t speak for others, but my mother taught me when I was 4 years old not to be near strangers when I’m sick. It’s common sense. I’m shocked to see adults who don’t know better in this age of information. Where does this come from?September 17, 2020 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1902636
CS – first example worked. Second is just dumb. Choosing not to wear a mask is not the same as choosing to pray with female rabbis.September 17, 2020 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #19026432scentsParticipant
“2scents, 100% yes! If someone has the flu and mixes with other people that person is a rotzeach. I’m surprised you had to ask that question thinking it was a point to prove your argument. Pshita”
I was just curious to see if people have this sentiment about calling someone a killer only if they are sick with the Covid19 virus or also with other viruses.
I was not trying to make a point.September 17, 2020 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1902700OtherTzadParticipant
If someone has the flu, yes stay home. Granted they say covid is 10x more contagious than flu, but if you Go around like you dont care and someone else gets sick? Their blood is on your hands.
Granted BH we have a vaccine that brings flu numbers down every year. But nonetheless if you’re careless, and around others, I’d say if someone even misses going to learning torah because some careless person passed them the flu- their missed Torah learning is on your hands too (the original careless infected person)September 17, 2020 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1902704PROUD REPUBLICANParticipant
I agree with you 100% and I’m doing the same as you on simchas Torah, I’m going to dance the best this year.September 17, 2020 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1902729
OtherTza: Just FYI, the flu vaccine does not protect against every strain of the flu. Let’s daven that this covid vaccine is effective but who knows? There many several strains of that as well.
As far as free-thinking dancing, I cannot understand why people are so cavalier about it, not so much for those who choose to dance unprotected but the chance of giving it someone vulnerable, an elderly relative, ,or a neighbor, or a parent.September 17, 2020 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1902732GadolhadorahParticipant
Proud Repubican: You may discover motzi yom tov that most hospital have strict rules about dancing in the ER and that even where it is allowed, the tubes from the ventilators make it difficult to do anything but the most simple type of steps like a mitzvah tanz. important to know since both you and others are exposed to higher risk of infection when engaged in vigorous dancing w/o wearing a mask. Perhaps we will see you sometime on “Dancing with the Covid Stars”.September 17, 2020 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1902743
I know it’s loads of fun to treat every maskless oerson like they are running through the streets spitting germsin people’s bedroom windows but can we drop the drama for just a minute so i can seriously explain something?
Tefusing to wear masks is irresponsible. Going to places where high risk people need to go (supermarkets etc) should be done with a mask.
Having said that, and Please hear me out, many doctors believe that thise with antibodies will most likely not catch or carry the virus. I know YOU may believe we can, but most medical professionals are saying otherwise. If i go somewhere that is NOT essential and i and the others choose not to wear masks i do not believe, BASED ON MEDICAL ADVICE, that i am putting ANYONE at risk.
Why/ how can i say that? Because i would not be there if anyone there was at risk, and i believe people at risk wouldn’t be there. They shouldn’t be ANYWHERE that people are not required to wear masks.
AND – i cannot (i repeat cannot) pass anything i probably don’t have to old or at risk people because if i was going to have ANY contact with such people, i wouldn’t have shown up maskless!!!!
So i understand where you are coming from, but if people who are at risk, AND the people they are in contact with, act responsibly, i (and the thousands like me) will *not* be a source of covid to them, and you will need to stop calling such people murderers.September 17, 2020 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1902752se2015Participant
Syag, what is the difference between supermarkets and any other place? Either way, according to your logic, you are highly unlikely to infect anyone, so why ever wear a mask?
The problem with going maskless is that even if you are correct that won’t be reinfected and won’t infect others, unless someone knows you or you wear a sign that announces you as a covid survivor, other people see you as yet another maskless person. They can’t separate you from all the other people who rationalize without evidence that the frum world has herd immunity; or who get deeply scientific and argue that if there was no mass outbreak over the last three months, then obviously it’s over; or who cite various third hand reports of rav such and such who told someone the mageifa is over; or because deblasio and cuomo are untrustworthy idiots anyway. It becomes a self reinforcing cycle of communal complacency and includes people who can and probably will spread the virus. I know plenty of people who do not have antibodies but do not wear masks because no one else is, so (as they explain) obviously one or more of the above theories are correct. They do not differentiate between venues except maybe to the extent that some stores insist that customers wear masks.
People who are concerned about getting infected are then faced with the unfair choice of taking additional risk when they go to public places or alternatively of not participating in something they have every right to participate in because no one else is taking precautions.
It is hyperbolic to say people with antibodies are murderers for going maskless. At the same time, they are contributing to an environment that unnecessarily increases the chances that people will die and/or that unfairly keeps people in lock down to avoid other people. What gives someone the right to prevent someone else from going to shul or to work. Contrary to what is being promoted on these message boards, it’s not at all an exercise of personal freedom. It’s an aggressive act that prevents someone else from acting freely. It’s not like drinking cholov stam because you hold cholov stam is ok. It’s like pouring your cholov stam in the communal vat of cholov yisroel milk because you hold it’s ok.
What I have a hard time understanding is that much of these debates are over masks. It’s uncomfortable, but wearing one is not exactly mesiras nefesh.September 17, 2020 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1902767
It is astonishing how so many frum people in the high-risk category just by age let alone health conditions take no precautions for themselves. If I want to dan l’chaf zchus I would say maybe they are not aware of it, but if that is so then OTHERS needs to wisen up and carry extra masks to give to them.September 17, 2020 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1902777
se2015 – the difference between supermarkets and other places is that it is a place that is difficult for high risk people to avoid and any place that they are not able to easily avoid is a place to practice extra caution. If you know you will be around high risk people, you have an obligation to take as many precautions as possible/needed.
People deciding that anyone without a mask is irresponsible is their problem. I have to say I am tired of wearing masks only so that people don’t have to have a nervous breakdown. I don’t mind wearing one to keep a place germ free, but to wear one because you are hyper sensitive in a way that I have not found backed by science is not fair. I will ALWAYS wear a mask in places where people cannot easily avoid so they can have minimal chance of getting sick. But it is not responsible for them to go to places where they do not need to be if they are guarding their health. It is their responsibility to avoid places where people are gathering. If they are at risk and chose to go to places like that, I am not sure how that is anyone elses responsibility.
I hear what you are saying in regard to people not wearing masks and therefore making other people at risk by making the environment unsafe for them. I am not sure that is true. And I am pretty sure your illustration is off. They are at risk because this virus is unpredictable, not because of me. And if they are at risk, they have no business being inside a shul without proper protection. I liken it to the difference between saying classmates of a child with peanut allergies should not eat peanuts in school. But it is not appropriate to say nobody anywhere should ever eat peanuts in shul in case a person with allergies walks in one day. If you are at risk, it is your job to be careful. And everyone who cross paths with you needs to be careful as well. And that includes every person who enters a store, bank, your building or office. But to say every joe schmo needs to wear masks everywhere is baseless. I don’t mind going an extra mile, but you are wrong to expect people to cater to overinflated standards, and to call them murderers when they don’t.
P.S. Lest it not be clear – I am in complete disagreement with Common Saychels self centered approach.September 17, 2020 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1902778
Moshe – maybe they don’t. Why assume the worst about people? Also, I think alot of people are so focused on the covid 19 virus that they are not giving enough thought to the emotional and psychological damage (I would also add developmental for kids) this is doing. It’s not about covid19 vs health, in so many people they are trying to juggle between covid19 or dysfunction, or breakdown, or depression. Talk to your doctors, get your facts straight, protect yourself and stop jumping to other people’s conclusions.
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