July 3, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2205095
With the three weeks coming up I was wondering what is sinas chinam?
Is it hating someone because they’re different in regards to how they practice their religion (cue the marvelous middos machine)?
Is it because they come from a certain locality (OOT versus in towners)?
What made the בעל הבית dislike קמצא?
We can’t know what to fix if we don’t know the problemJuly 3, 2023 11:47 am at 11:47 am #2205118
Classically it refers to hating someone because of what they’ve done to you, since everything is min hashomayim, it’s baseless.
But it can apply to your cases as well, assuming you’re not referring to sinners who violate halacha routinely – the mitzvah of hating them might not apply nowadays, but it’s definitely not baseless hate.July 3, 2023 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2205138
Is hating Reform and Conservative “Judaism” sinas chinam?July 3, 2023 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2205152GoldilocksParticipant
Hating someone because they practice religion differently than you is certainly sinas chinam (especially if their way of practicing religion is a valid one).
Hating someone because they live in a certain area? Are you for real or joking? Of course, it’s sinas chinam; why would you think otherwise?July 3, 2023 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #2205159Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Paid journalists are not involved in sinas hinam – they are paid for it, so their sinas is not real, just a job. Only posters on coffee boards are truly involved in sinas hinam, having no other pleasure other than just expressing it.July 3, 2023 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #2205173SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
The Metsudath David commentary on Tehillim, chapter 69, verse 5, seems to imply that Sinat Chinam is hating a person who never harmed you.
Netziv’s introduction to his commentary on Bereishit [HaEmek Davar] teaches that sinat chinam is hating someone because he belongs to a different group or because he has a different point of view or because he does things differently or a different custom.July 3, 2023 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #2205175SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
UJM, you must make a distinction between hating Reform Judaism and hating Reform Jews.July 3, 2023 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2205227
Square, gedolim say nowadays not to hate people who aren’t frum. It’s a chidush, because chazal say it’s a Mitzvah to hate unrepretent continual sinners, but naniach.
Hating a reform jew who, for instance, is a proud marcher in the abomination parade, and a member of women of the wall, etc…is definitely not baseless! Whether or not you should depends on who you ask. Im not on the madrega to hate someone leshem shomayim, so I don’t.July 3, 2023 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2205239
Well said, you took the words out of my mouth.July 3, 2023 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2205249GoldilocksParticipant
AviraDeArah, this is probably off topic (sorry) but would you mind clarifying something? I was surprised to see you comparing an abomination-parade marcher to a “women of the wall” member. Are the two really comparable? Abomination parades actively support actual aveiros, and pretty serious aveiros at that. Women of the wall members, on the other hand, probably aren’t shining examples of perfect conduct, but are they actually committing or encouraging aveiros?July 3, 2023 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #2205253
The Rebbe Rashab has a very sharp maamar know as החלצו תרנ”ט where he discusses the concept of sinas chinam at length and how to rid oneself of it.
This was particularly hard for me to learn because it so aptly describes the the relationship I have with some people, and the struggle of overcoming these feelings. I’m still working to rid myself of this sinas chinam.
Here are some excerpts:
שנאת-חינם היא, שאחד שונא את חברו סתם כך, על לא-דבר. לפעמים הוא ממציא טענה כלשהי, מדוע הוא שונאו, אבל אין זו אלא תואנה ועלילה להצדיק את שנאתו. הסיבה האמיתית היא – ישותו העצמית, שאינה מניחה מקום לזולתו. חשוב הוא בעיני עצמו, ולכן הזולת ממעט את מציאותו.
כל אחד בונה במה לעצמו, בתורה ובעבודה, על-פי דעתו ושכלו דווקא, ואין אחד מתאחד ומתחבר עם רעהו. כל אחד מבטל את הטוב שבעבודת חברו, וכל חיסרון שימצא בה – יגדיל וירחיב עשרת מונים (אף אם אינו אלא חיצוני, שאינו נוגע בגוף ובעצם עבודתו). התנהגות זו מעידה ששונא הוא את חברו בליבו ואינו חפץ כלל בטובתו. ומהי הסיבה לשנאה זו? ישותו והרגשת עצמו, או בלשון אחרת: העדר הביטול והעדר הנחת עצמותוJuly 3, 2023 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2205266
Women off the wall (mistyped on purpose) sing explicitly in front of men (לפני עור) and touch a Sefer Torah when they are possibly נדות
There probably are other עבירות that they doJuly 3, 2023 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2205267
Description from Women of the Wall website:
“As Women of the Wall, our central mission is to attain social and legal recognition of our right, as women, to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah, collectively and aloud, at the Western Wall.”
i.e. Their mission is to wage a war against Hashem Himself by publicly going against His will as it is manifested in halacha.
And all this – in the holiest place in the world – the place where the Shechina rests! ר”ל ר”ל
May this abomination be obliterated immediately.
As a Lubavitcher, I follow the path of the Chabad rabbeim of being mekarev every Yid, even those with the status of מורידין ולא מעלין (See Likkutei Sichos vol. 2 pg. 620).
As the Gemara says: יתמו חטאים ולא חוטאים
While I wouldn’t hate Women of the Wall (since they are Jewish), and I would try to be mekarev them, their actions are definitely deplorable.July 3, 2023 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #2205268
Gold, i put them together because they both are openly declaring war on Hashem and His Torah, albeit in different ways. As it happens to be, most WoW are definitely abomination activists, but that’s a separate issue.
What WoW do is deny the Torah, blame rabbis including chazal for not being woke enough, and openly demonstrate that they disagree with the gender roles assigned by halacha to them.July 4, 2023 4:10 am at 4:10 am #2205359amiricanyeshivishParticipant
Avira the Litvak and Menachem Shmei the Chabadnik agreed on something and almost used the same wording!
Moshiach must be coming….although they disagree who that is….July 4, 2023 4:11 am at 4:11 am #2205364yungermanSParticipant
What WOW does and reform and conservative Jews do may be terrible things against yiddishkeit worldwide but with all due respect lets be honest with truth and FACE REALITY. lets ask ourselves honestly “how can we expect Mashiach to come when the Sinas chinam amongst us is worse than when the second bais hamikdosh was destroyed because of baseless hatred amongst all of klal yisroel”?
As soon as we do what Hashem is waiting for us to do AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT THAT IS…… with love inviting all our brethren from all angels and levels of Judaism of the world to join us as one loving nation begging Hashem forgiveness and to bring Mashiach already bkarov then our loving father Hashem ruler of the world is always ready to forgive his loving children klal yisroel. Even the worst sinners in klal yisroel at the end of their life kings Menashe and Achav begged forgiveness for a life of Avoda Zara and bringing the entire nation to turn away from Hashem….. And you know what happened at the end???…. Their teshuva was sincere and wholeheartedly begging Hashem forgiveness and Hashem accepted their teshuva even though it came from years and years of sinning the worst and causing the entire nation of klal yisroel to serve Avoda Zara.
May we all wake up and face reality immediately so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.July 4, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2205428
Thank you yungermanS,
In order to solve a problem you have to figure out what the problem is, and it seems like we haven’t figured out the problem because we’re still here and we’re still doing the same things
I highly doubt if we really knew what the problem is then the gedolim wouldn’t help us fix itJuly 4, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2205457July 4, 2023 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #2205562
There’s a story about R’ Shamshon Wertheimer, who was court Jew for Emperor Leopold, and the Emperor asked him, “why, if Jews are so smart, are they so despised and persecuted?” R’ Shamshon answered, “It’s because of sinas chinam”
The Emperor then went on a hunting trip, and lost his way. He was separated from his servants and horse, and was wandering in the woods in freezing rain. He saw a town and attempted to find shelter, but no one would let him in. Finally he found a house with a mezuzah and the Jewish owner let him stay the night, gave him a hot drink and a fur blanket, and a place near the fire.
In the morning the Emperor asked to Jew to find him a baal agulah who could take him back to Vienna. “I am a baal agulah”, replied the Jew. “Take me to Vienna, to the royal palace, and I will reward you richly”, the Emperor said.
When they reached Vienna, the Emperor told the Jew he could have whatever he wished, but the Jew was not interested. “I can give you lands, estates, the right to build mills, inns, distilleries, bridges with tolls”, but the Jew didn’t respond. “There is only one thing I want,” he said, “in my town there recently came another baal agulah, and his business interferes with my business, I find it irritating that there should be another baal agulah in my town.”
That’s sinas chinam. That’s what Hashem asked Kayin, why are you angry? Because I didn’t accept your offering? Or because I accepted his? It’s human nature to look at what other people have, but the tenth Dibra is to fight against that yetzer, not to covet your neighbor’s house.July 4, 2023 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2205565
There’s a well known story about the Brisker Rov (R’ Chaim Soloveitchik). There was a shochet in Brisk who had a Din Torah about a relatively small amount of money, and the Beis Din ruled against him. He insulted R’ Chaim and called him names and walked out, refusing to accept the ruling.
On Yom Kippur night R’ Chaim went with his sons to the Shul where the shochet davened. It was during Kol Nidre and everyone had their taleisim over their heads, so they had to peer under the taleisim until they found the shochet. R’ Chaim asked him three times for mechilah. But the shochet yelled, “Mechilah? No! Get me my money back!”
Months earlier R’ Chaim had ruled about a treifa animal and this same shochet lost a large amount of money because of this animal. The sons asked R’ Chaim, “Why was he mekabel the large loss of the treifa but not the small loss of the din Torah?”
“It didn’t bother him to lose the money,” answered R’ Chaim, “it bothered him that yenem (the other guy) should get the money.”July 4, 2023 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2205583commonsaychelParticipant
@provaxx, this is rich, coming from someone who spewed venom to the people who did not take the covid shotJuly 4, 2023 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #2205594
I didn’t take the shot, but why bring up old fights in this thread?July 4, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2205590
commonsaychel, never did, you’re just reading into my name.
You don’t know me, I never criticized anyone for being anti vax.July 4, 2023 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2205595
If you want to see a perfect example of sinas chinam, look at common saychel’s response to me. This is a person I have never met, who does not know me, makes false assumptions and publicizes lashon hara about me based on my screen name. I never criticized anyone who was anti-vaccine.July 4, 2023 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2205634commonsaychelParticipant
Your direct quote
“Chanie315, you’re clearly not an educated person. Viruses are something that people can control, look at smallpox, measles and chickenpox. Smallpox has been eradicated, and the incidence of measles and chickenpox has been markedly curtailed. Small minded people, like you, who can’t see past the end of their own noses (“why can’t we go to Eretz Yisroel?”) never appreciate the seriousness of a public health emergency until it affects them directly.”
“July 4, 2023 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #2205653
Please, this is completely out of context.
Why would you bring up a random post from the height of the covid debate in 2021 here in this thread?
(It didn’t even have to do with the vaccine. Chanie315 actually agreed with the vaccine. They were arguing about the severity of the virus).
This is just asking for an argument. And in a sinas chinam thread.
Come on.July 4, 2023 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #2205655
To get back to the main topic at hand
How is אבילות (not getting a haircut, not getting married, and not listening to music etc) supposed to help
If the problem is שנאת חינם the things we should be doing is more chessed not אבילות and why the connection to ספירת העומר with the תלמידים of rabbi AkivaJuly 4, 2023 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2205664
Coffee, the aveilus is necessary by itself, to drive home what we lost, why we want it back, and to feel the pain of Hashem kavayachol.
But that awareness that we gain from aveilus is supposed to spur us to teshuvah and rectifying the causes of the churban, namely sinas chinam, which the chofetz chaim says refers mainly to lashon hora.
The two things are related, but separately important. Without aveilus, we wouldn’t know what we’re directing our efforts towards.July 5, 2023 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #2205952sechel83Participant
there is a place in torah it says its a mitzvah to hate someone – someone who sees his freind do an avaira, now in tanya perek 32, the alter rebbe explains a bit certain conditions for this, and says its also a mitzvah to love him.
sinas chinam means to hate someone for any other “valid” reason besides if you yourself saw him do the avaira etc with all the conditionsJuly 7, 2023 8:49 am at 8:49 am #2206293yankel berelParticipant
you conveniently left out the brackets there in tanya – for an apikorus there should be ONLY sinah . Tachlis Sin’ah ….July 7, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2206458HaLeiViParticipant
Coffee your follow-up was not mentioned in your original post but you did ask this previously. And I believe I responded then as well.
The time of the calamity is the time for us to pay attention enough to care about and internalize the loss. Are you truly suggesting that instead of Chazal making a day of mourning they should have made another purim to give mishloach manos?
Besides, it is a mistaken notion to think that the whole Galus is all about sinas chinam. It does say that that is why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed, just like the first one was because of the three sins. However, that is not too say that it’s all that is necessary.
It’s obviously an important lesson of how serious Sinas Chinam is, and it’s a pretty good time to avoid it, but it’s not a day of friendship. You got all year for that.July 9, 2023 1:05 am at 1:05 am #2206599
If you hate other Yiden because they lost their way, is there any place for them to come back to?
Think about it. I believe it answers both topics.July 9, 2023 1:06 am at 1:06 am #2206611
Thank you haleivi
I want to comment I was reading an article in the mishpacha from a few weeks ago about a baalas teshuva and how she went to an in town community and they made her feel like an outcast (sorry if I’m not being too wordy, if anyone wants to give more details כל הכבוד)
This is what sinas chinam isJuly 9, 2023 1:36 am at 1:36 am #2206623
Coffee, my experience in “in town” communities is that if someone makes themselves an outcast, then they’ll be one. For better or worse, dressing, talking, and acting differently from literally everyone else will make you stand out and make people not want to be associated with you.
I’ve never met a person who didn’t both say that they were an outcast and also state the importance they felt of maintaining fheir “individuality” and not wanting to be like everyone else.
You can’t have it both ways; not wanting to conform and then complaining when people don’t want much to do with you.July 9, 2023 2:54 am at 2:54 am #2206627
Sinas Chinam isn’t the only reason. The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should only care about her appearance for the purposes of not being repulsive to her husband.July 9, 2023 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2206678
“You can’t have it both ways; not wanting to conform and then complaining when people don’t want much to do with you.“
The Torah tells us not to hate a גר whether a newcomer or a real convert because
“You were strangers in a strange land”July 9, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2206796
“You can’t have it both ways; not wanting to conform and then complaining when people don’t want much to do with you.”
That could be a mantra for secluarism! A deeply religious person does not conform or compimise, yet understands that all of us share a meaningful connection.
The fact that some people are difficult to accomadate, doesn’t make me exempt from giving of my assets.July 9, 2023 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #2206828
Coffee, no one’s saying to hate anyone. What people often do is not want to associate with people perceived as being modern or otherwise influenced by the goyishe world, whether they were born jewish or not.
Nom, it’s not about accommodating people; it’s people joining a community with the intention of being essentially iconoclasts.July 9, 2023 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #2206831
I know plenty pf BTs and gerim who don’t let their past define them, and havd totally embraced yiddishkeit in every possible way. They are true bnei torah and don’t deviate from their yeshiva or chasidus an inch. And no one has a problem with them.
The only difference is in rebbehe shiduchim, where they won’t get rehdt to a rebbishe einikel…nu nu.
But in Litvishe yeshivos, BTs have married roshei yeshiva; it’s more of a meritocracy.
And in Lubavitch their pool of shiduchim is even more limited.July 9, 2023 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #2206860
“….. it’s people joining a community with the intention of being essentially iconoclasts.”
That description is applicable to Avraham Avinu.
Real religious people do not conform to communities. They set the value standard for the rest of society. Secularists get all caught up in dress and culture and calling out the uncouth.July 10, 2023 12:16 am at 12:16 am #2206926HaLeiViParticipant
N0m, are you missing his point unintentionally, or is this out of enjoyment of tossing words around to make new meaning out of them?July 10, 2023 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #2207252sechel83Participant
@ yankel berel , and how do you define a apikores? look in gemarah, 2) so i can decide who is an apikores, cuz i heard lashon hara about him?July 10, 2023 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #2207269
sechel,; It’s a mitzvah to hate and mock an apikorus. We certainly can identify who is an apikorus. In fact, we are obligated to do so.July 10, 2023 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2207358SACT5Participant
When I was younger (school age) if I noticed I disliked someone for no real reason (perhaps based on assumptions or mild jealously whatever it was) I would force myself to try to become friends with them. Getting to know them usually worked to overcome whatever was causing that feeling and better than that I’d often end up with a new friend.
My suggestion would be to find someone you assume you dislike and reach out in some way and try to find common ground. Like amiricanyeshivish pointed out just happened earlier in this thread.
Remember sinas chinam is a two way street. In my opinion it’s harder to hate someone you know and when there’s no “real reason” it should be easier than you might expect to overcome.
yungermanS – beautifully said!
provaxx – thanks for the stories 🙂
n0mesorah – “If you hate other Yiden because they lost their way, is there any place for them to come back to?” – *applause*
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