October 17, 2021 7:55 am at 7:55 am #2016671chesednameParticipant
I had an idea shabbos, singers all complain people make copies of their work and don’t pay for it.
It cost me $14.00 to donwload a CD, assuming they get $7.00 would anyone have a problem making a copy for their brother and somehow paying the singer 7 dollars?? I think not.
Let the singers give out their Zelle or PayPal account, (or open one for this) and when you make a copy for someone send them the $7.00October 17, 2021 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #2016887☕️coffee addictParticipant
How much do singers get from Spotify?October 17, 2021 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #2016919
This debate is not so relevant anymore. I personally have a subscription to YouTube music.
But I remember back when it was hot topic. I downloaded anything I wanted because it is totally mutar. Intellectual property is a modern phenomenon.October 17, 2021 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2016934
YouTube music has heimishe singers?October 17, 2021 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2016981
How is it mutar to steal from Spotify? If singers do not want, they can put music on a website instead of spotify. IP is not a very modern phenomenon. There are halakhot and gezerot when Jewish books were published. And even if it is a total innovation, it is part of the civil law and contract that you signed with the company you subscribed to.October 17, 2021 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2017010
YouTube music has almost every song that exists, including every Jewish song you can think of. The artists upload their music or someone else willOctober 17, 2021 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #2017014chesednameParticipant
I don’t think youtube or spotify has the latest cd’s.
My point was who has a problem paying what the singer actually ends up getting? why not just open a zelle or paypal account and everyone is happy?October 17, 2021 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #2017012
Books are already very different from music. They are tangibleOctober 17, 2021 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #2017017
AAQ: What “contract” did you sign when you bought a book in Barnes & Noble or a CD in your neighborhood supermarket?
Dina Dmalchusa doesn’t necessarily apply to issues between Yidden.
IP in halacha doesn’t have a straightforward answer.October 17, 2021 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #2017026☕️coffee addictParticipant
Who said anything about stealing from Spotify?October 17, 2021 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #2017020GadolhadorahParticipant
YouTube music has heimishe singers?
UJM: Depends on your definition of “heimeshe”.
We just happened to download a few Yitchak Mayer Helfgot and Avram Fried singles we couldn’t find anywhere else….If your looking for Streisand and Neil Diamond, even better.October 17, 2021 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2017075
Shimon; that shitah is a daas yochid. See Shevet Halevi 4:202 Practical Laws of Money p. 117 cites a letter from Rav Karelitz, Rav Elyashiv, and Rav Wosner. Quotes Emek Hamishpat 4 (quoting Rav Nissim Karelitz) as holding that it is forbidden buy illegal software.
Igros Moshe 4:40:19, Rav Elyashiv (Mishnas Zchiyos Hayotzer ch. 18, Emek Hamishpat), Teshuvos Vhanhagos 1:829, Netsiv in Meishiv Dvar 24, Minchas Yitzchak 9:153
Rav belsky is quoted in piskei halacha as holding that it’s assur, as I have also heard it mi’peh kodsho personallyOctober 17, 2021 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2017078
I’d be remiss if i didn’t mention the shoel mayshiv, probably the most famous teshuva on this topic – it’s in 1:44October 17, 2021 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2017081
coffee, maybe you did not the scheme – he wants to buy one copy, then give it to a friend instead of the friend buying it, and pay missing revenue to the singer and not to spotify.
According to a quick search, spotify has family subscriptions and is trying to police “families” that do not live at the same address. So, they obviously object to that. Maybe reading rules might help.October 17, 2021 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #2017096
YouTube is known to strictly police copyright violations. If it is on their platform, presumably the artists permit it to be on YouTube.October 17, 2021 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2017101
ujm: What “contract” did you sign when you bought a book in Barnes & Noble or a CD in your neighborhood supermarket?
I don”t remember, that was too long ago! When you sign up for spotify, I am pretty sure you are clicking on T&C.
> Dina Dmalchusa doesn’t necessarily apply to issues between Yidden.
this is not between Yidden, it is between the Spotify user and the company.
at the end, could the OP do us a favor – and ask his Rav or Melamed or Morah? And tell us what he heard.October 17, 2021 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2017099
> Books are already very different from music. They are tangible
we are not talking about stealing tangible books. There were controversies regarding stealing design of the Shas page that people were putting decades of life to create. This is probably more controversial with Torah books – as we are not supposed to charge for Torah … Avira, thanks for bringing the sourcesOctober 17, 2021 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2017097
I was listening to a visiting learned speaker that combined two hot topics here – pritzut challenges in workplace and business ethics. The speaker proposed a list of humros to deal with the first issues and then went to a several kulos for cases like billing the company for the food that spoiled and was reimbursed by the hotel. He judged some permissible and some not, all with impeccable sources in poskim.
I was struck by the dissonance between being the direction – all humros in first case and just burning desire to make an extra buck in the second – and the great bonding with the audience. Just when I was thinking should I object when everyone agrees, I was relieved when suddenly the Rosh Kollel starting shouting – geneiva, geneiva
When I asked the speaker privately, he explained that pritzus in workplace leads to irreversible damage – broken families, etc. This still did not explain the desire for geneiva. When I asked Rosh Kollel, he suggested that for him business honesty is the most important parameter for shiduchim (I presume he took a number of other things for granted as easily researchable, while business honesty is not).October 17, 2021 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2017119tunaisafishParticipant
puting music on youtube or spotify generates money every tiem you watch/listen to it. so it would be stealingOctober 17, 2021 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #2017147
Aaq, I don’t think it’s a desire for geneiva, I think that in mamonis issues with goyim or especially with corporations and/or the govt, we are not to waste our money or forego opportunities that are allowed according to halacha, especially if in doing so no chilul hashem would arise.
Shmiras aynayim is not something we seek kulos in.. it’s part of the yesod of kedushas yisroel.October 17, 2021 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #2017153
Also, who said anything about software? We’re talking music. MOO – ZIKOctober 17, 2021 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #2017168
So you’re pro gneivah now? Sign me up!October 17, 2021 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2017172GadolhadorahParticipant
“we are not to waste our money or forego opportunities that are allowed according to halacha, especially if in doing so no chilul hashem would arise”
No clear what you are saying. Do you think its ok to “steal’ IP from a goy or defraud the government if those actions are not per se recognized as “ganavah” under halacha and there is no liklihood of being caught so therefore “no chilul hashem”. Or are you saying exactly the opposite which I think is what you meant (i.e. ganevah is ganevah).October 17, 2021 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2017185
I am with you on not paying extra to IRS, and so does American law, you are allowed to take allowable …
But I disagree in business. People see what you are doing and opportunities for both kiddush and hillul Hashem are everywhere.
I was once in an expensive course in job search after a layoff.. the trainer was guiding me how to highlight my strengths via light gnevat daas in a mock interview. I was a bad student. After several attempts, she stopped and said that she actually believes me more the way I talk… In an earlier case, a non Jewish employer told me later that he hired me over another candidate because I was asking about what I don’t know, and the other guy claimed knowing everythingOctober 17, 2021 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2017186
Even if you are buying via computer and you think nobody sees except Hashem, the vendor is analyzing the data and may deduce profiles of cheaters: a Jewish zip code, school, music type
They may then charge the singer more or take him off the platformOctober 17, 2021 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2017200
“if those actions are not per se recognized as “ganavah” under halacha and there is no liklihood of being caught so therefore “no chilul hashem”. Or are you saying exactly the opposite which I think is what you meant (i.e. ganevah is ganevah).”
It isn’t geneiva if those actions are not per se recognized as “ganavah” under halacha.October 17, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2017205
Mods, what was wrong with my comment? I’m saying I don’t believe Avirah. I don’t trust him to reliably quote sources because he’s been misquoting them too many times. Also, he’s shown how krum he can be regarding any subject under the sun. Is there something wrong with any of that?
Yes, the way you said it was unacceptable.October 17, 2021 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #2017222
**Mod**, you posted the last comment. It seems you didn’t intend to approve it’s pubic visibilityOctober 17, 2021 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2017227
ujm> It isn’t geneiva if those actions are not per se recognized as “ganavah” under halacha.
Tautology? As halakha does not generally recognize breaking common laws …October 17, 2021 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2017230
Avira > think that in mamonis issues with goyim or especially with corporations and/or the govt, we are not to waste our money
I understand what you are saying, i.e. we should not give presents, etc. Here we are talking about justifying questionable behavior. And, suddenly, the same people would spend money on better heksher, on nicer lulav, are eagerly looking for tirutzim to do something that looks bad (otherwise, there would be no shailah!).
I think we are just not feeling same respect to dinim as we do to hukim. The latter give you a feeling of being “frum”, while the former – just a regular member of the society, nothing spectacular.October 17, 2021 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2017241
Tov..October 18, 2021 12:14 am at 12:14 am #2017247
Shimon – there’s a lot of misquotation here in general; usually i mix up names of sources when i make a mistake, but I don’t invent things out of thin air. The sources I quoted above were from a reliable melaket. If what I say is krum to you – simply disregard it, but just to clarify, you’re the one who wanted to be natir a potential deoraysoh of stealing thousands of times over, while i was saying that it’s not yosher, in accordance with the overwhelming majority of poskim. If you don’t believe me, ask any LOR, because this is something even MO are makpid on.
Gadolha, I was saying that AAQ’s description of the speaker sounded to me like he was being meikil on dinei momonus that non-jews would also not consider geneva, because if there’s no chilul Hashem (because it’s not assur and it doesn’t look like geneva to goyim either because they do it too)October 18, 2021 12:18 am at 12:18 am #2017244
“Tautology? As halakha does not generally recognize breaking common laws …”
Dinei mamonus are governed by Halacha rather than by secular law.October 25, 2021 6:01 am at 6:01 am #2020405ohrchadash1Participant
“What contract are you breaking…”
The contract you are breaking is the copyright contract that is in every official book and cd where you expressly agree that you will not reproduce the contents without permission.October 25, 2021 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2020483
There’s no expressly agreed terms when you pay for a book or CD at the supermarket.
Or when you borrow a book or CD from the library or a friend.October 25, 2021 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #2020545Yserbius123Participant
Singers make very little off of the albums. They usually have big contracts with Mostly Music or whomever that nets them only a small percentage of the sales, in return for the producer doing basically everything but singing and songwriting.October 26, 2021 1:37 am at 1:37 am #2020716
ujm, you are consistently looking for ways to save $10 by not-exactly-stealing. Why not simply switch to using less humros and even food with K on it. This will have as much sofek as copying CDs, but at least it is potential aveira only l’Hashem instead of both Hashem and people. I thin deep inside you feel that one of these will make you “not frum” while the other will not. I am not sure what is the source of this krumness.October 26, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2020982
Once you release a song, you cannot stop people from sharing it. So you are essentially being mafkir your music. People can retain your services to perform, but it’s completely nonsensical to say you own a particular song. This is strictly a modern era concept.October 27, 2021 12:16 am at 12:16 am #2021203
Shimon, contract is not a modern concept. See: bris.October 27, 2021 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2021218ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤParticipant
On a lot of jewish cd covers it syas. ” unauthorized reproduction of this film is against both halacha and the law.” or such. are they lying? are they wrong?October 27, 2021 12:39 am at 12:39 am #2021223
What if they put in the fine print on back of the CD cover “Purchase of this product executes an agreement between you and the publisher that you agree to pay an annual fee of $500 for the next ten years.” You notice this when you open the CD. What is the halachic deadline for you to submit your first (of ten) $500 payment?October 27, 2021 12:39 am at 12:39 am #2021222
There’s no contract when you buy a book or CD.October 27, 2021 1:03 am at 1:03 am #2021230
There is copyright law and maybe more. This is not a $500 catch in fine print. If you did not know it before, you know it now and have no more excuse.
What if you see a halal or a vegetarian or a copyright sign on a chicken and decide that it is a reliable
hashgoha – would eat such a chicken?
if not, why do you WANT to steal a CD. Explain please. Not why you may or may not, but why do you WANT. Do you have a special toeva for music? is it more for Jewish or goyish?
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