Singing A Goyishe Tune
- This topic has 39 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 11 months ago by haifagirl.
May 16, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #603439derszogerMember
The Mishna Brura in Shaar HaTziyun in Hilchos Tisha Bav quotes the Shelah that says a mother should not sing her baby to sleep with a Goyish tune because it is detrimental to the baby’s Neshama. The fact that the Mishna Brura saw fit to quote this means you should follow it.May 16, 2012 4:23 am at 4:23 am #882660
Dude, you are misquoting. He says ???? ????? ????? ?????. I didn’t even have to look inside to remember that. He’s talking about songs of lust and foul language. And aderaba, the same Mishna Berura quotes a Bach l’halacha that it’s okay to use non-Jewish tunes in shul. So there.May 16, 2012 4:24 am at 4:24 am #882661
Ders: See what R’ Matisyahu Salomon says about this is Matnas Chayim on Purim.
And the fact that it’s in the Sha’ar Hatziyun and not the Mishnah B’rurah itself should say something. The M”B quoted almost every Shittah imaginable. The fact that a Shittah is quoted does not necessarily mean that he thinks you should follow it.May 16, 2012 4:29 am at 4:29 am #882662
The Mishna Berura I cited is in 53:82.May 16, 2012 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #882663jdbParticipant
Many popular and mainstream songs we use in our avodah (davening, tishes, simchas etc) came from goyishe tunes. When I asked my Rebbe about a number of shailos related to music he said that if klal yisrael does it, we must figure out how it is OK.
Go to YouTube and listen to Pick A Bale Of Cotton.May 16, 2012 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #882664hockaroundtheclockMember
So then don’t sing any jewish music that came out in the last 10 years.July 3, 2012 12:27 am at 12:27 am #882665
question – why would someone want to sing a non jewish tune to their child to put them to sleep? or if you mean like the classic twinkle twinkle etc…
its a good question… but most of our kids music’s are based on non jewish… however thats why some people stick with niggunim…July 3, 2012 12:38 am at 12:38 am #882666
jbd: He got the lyrics totally wrong! It’s Mishe Mishe…July 3, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #882667zahavasdadParticipant
Chabad sing the tune to La Marsailles (French national Anthem)July 3, 2012 1:23 am at 1:23 am #882668
ya zahavasdad but apparantely its not exactly the same any more…….. dno about that i think they’re different..July 3, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #882669☕️coffee addictParticipant
oh I thought this was about jewish songs sung to goyish tunes (an example would be on second dance there is a tune that is beat for beat a goyish tune (they play it in my work, that’s how I know)) I won’t hijack this thread though, I’ll make my ownJuly 3, 2012 7:10 am at 7:10 am #882670haifagirlParticipant
You mean like Brahms’s Lullaby for Hamapil?July 3, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #882671July 3, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #882672akupermaParticipant
All melodies are goyish (some theorize the melody of bircas cohanim is original, but there is no way to verify that since they didn’t have musical notes or recording devices back then).
It is the LYRICS (words) that one should be discussing.July 3, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #882673
So wait am I allowed to listen to the very popular song ‘Yofyufisa’ by shasheles/shalsheles Jr./akapella if I KNOW its from a goyish song from the 60’s???????. Many ybc songs have tunes that are from goyish songs in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s. Yofyufisa is only an example. May I ask someone who actually knows what they are talking about?July 3, 2012 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #882674yehudayonaParticipant
How about Maoz Tzur from a Lutheran hymn?July 3, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #882675
Shopping, it’s not a problem.July 4, 2012 2:33 am at 2:33 am #882676147Participant
yehudayona:- Isn’t Mo’oz Tzur a tune from a German Pub?July 4, 2012 5:09 am at 5:09 am #882677
Someone once theorized that the Gregorian chants were stolen from the Levi’im in the Bet HaMikdash.July 5, 2012 4:42 am at 4:42 am #882678
Well I think music is music but there is something in kabbalah (which I was told so not sure how reliable this is…) that you are connected to the neshama of the person who’s singing the music.
Now i’m not sure if its the singer, the origional composer or the musician that its referring to.
And actually because of all these things I actually create my own tunes up, and so many times friends have asked me to sing a song thats non jewish and make it jewish which I completely REFUSE to do. I BH know how to make up my own tunes… I don’t understand why other singers don’t do the same.. we want to hear NEW stuff anyways!! Not the copy of the non jewish……July 5, 2012 7:23 am at 7:23 am #882679
Well I’m guessing they want to save money and use a tune so old no one who is interested in listening (ussually the younger generation) has ever heard of……July 6, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #882680
No they don’t lol. Macabeats and Lipa use alot of very modern tunes! I’d know coz I listen to both. It really bothers me. There has to be some separation. And really seriously.. I don’t get how these singers became singers if they can’t make up their own tunes… whatever its all good.
I just think its an interesting concept to know if I should sing tunes like twinkle twinkle to my kids to put them to sleep. Maybe I should change their bed-time song routine. In todays day and age where the challenges are so hard during the teenager ages – it might make all the difference just by doing some small things right while they’re young…July 6, 2012 6:16 am at 6:16 am #882681
So its against the Torah to sing ‘ twinkle twinkle cochavim way up in the shamayim..”????????? Cuz its a non Jewish tune?July 6, 2012 6:28 am at 6:28 am #882682YW Moderator-42Moderator
This should be a new shidduch question: Did her mother sing her goyish lulabys when she was a baby? If she did then she is not a fit shidduch for there best guy in Lakewood.July 6, 2012 11:37 am at 11:37 am #882683
Shopping613 – Again, it’s not. The OP made it up.July 6, 2012 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #882684BTGuyParticipant
Incredible!July 6, 2012 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #882685
Singing goyishe tunes to a child can have a very negative effect on the child’s neshomo that might only be recognized when the child is older and its too late!July 6, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #882686
OP?????July 6, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #882687
What’s incredible?July 6, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #882688
Original PostJuly 6, 2012 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #882689shtickel_seichelParticipant
It’s not just a matter of singing a goyishe tune, even with different words. It’s probably just as assur to use goyishe musical styles, even for yiddishe songs. And it’s more than a matter of goyishe musical styles, it’s probably just as assur to use goyishe musical instruments. After all, were there electric guitars in the Beis Hamikdosh? The only kosher music for a Jew is to pound the table and go “ay-ay-ay” like our forefathers have been doing for generations.July 6, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #882690
Choppy: Thank you so much for a made-up spiritual assessment that only you seem qualified to make.July 6, 2012 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #882691
Sam, you think that damage to a child’s neshomo is not possible by certain subtle things that may not be a violation of a direct rule in the book? Or do you think it can happen, but no one is qualified to point out what kinds of things they are? Either way, I assure you what I mentioned is not my own chiddushim but rather the daas Torah of my rebbeim!July 6, 2012 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #882692
Choppy: Yeah. And Jews don’t live in Chicago.July 6, 2012 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #882693
Choppy: Da’as Torah has to come from Torah. Show a source in Torah please and then I’ll believe you. You can’t because it doesn’t exist. Of course things can hurt a person’s Neshama. And those that can are pointed out in the Halachic and Kabbalistic Sefarim. If it’s not in them, then it’s not true.July 6, 2012 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #882695
The OP is right! Look in the Mishna Brura he mentioned. The Mishna Brurah brings in the name of the Shelah that a woman should not sing a baby to sleep with a non-jewish MELODY, because it can have an affect on the baby’s neshoma.
Music is a very sublime form of expression, and a person’s music is a kind of product of his soul (it says so in the Kuzari). Therefore, even music without words can have an effect on you.
This is true even though the baby cannot understand one word, even if the mother is singing with the words.
Even if you hardly pay attention to the words, that, too, won’t matter. The words are still there, you’re still listening. They still get into your head, and stay there. It is known that even while sleeping, people can listen to instructive tapes and it will make an impression on their minds. To wit: Lack of attention does not negate the effect of the words.July 6, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #882696
Choppy: See the second post on this thread. Yitay is 100% correct.July 6, 2012 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #882697
The MB quotes the Shelah about even a MELODY. And see what I told you the Kuzari says.July 7, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #882698
Choppy and Derszogger, the exact citation is 560:25. This is what he says:??? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??.
Only songs with immodest content are prohibited.He does not mention niggunim without words although if the tune will remind a person of the filthy content that would obviously also be assur even just for himself (as the MB goes on to say).July 7, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #882699haifagirlParticipant
I don’t get how these singers became singers if they can’t make up their own tunes
They are singers, not composers.
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