Singing in Davening

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  • #616369

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Why is it that yeshivish minyanim tend not to sing parts of the davening that other minyanim sing?

    #1100652

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Such as what?

    #1100653

    Joseph
    Participant

    What would be an example of what you refer to?

    #1100654

    flatbusher
    Participant

    On a typical Shabbos, for example, a yeshivish minyan likely won’t sing El-Adon or Kedusha, and even Hallel on those occasions is short on singing

    #1100655

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think OP is refurring the Ein Kelokenu or Anim Zmiroth

    #1100656

    flatbusher
    Participant

    That too, but given some shuls never do that anyway, I did clarify with examples.

    #1100657

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Don’t know. When I was in Darchei Torah, they almost always sang Kedushah by Shacharis. I don’t remember what they did for Kel Adon. For Hallel, they sang Halelu and Pischu Li.

    #1100658

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The shul I was at for YK didn’t sing “ki anu amecha” correctly. Instead of doing the normal tune, they said it responsively (I always wondered how Artscroll got that wrong). And each chazzan had a different sort of chant for it, so nobody had any idea what to do.

    It was the least inspiring version of the most inspiring teffila I’ve ever seen. Weirdest part was they knew the tune, because the did the correct lead in for “selach lanu, mechal lanu, kaper lanu.”

    Also, in my yeshiva, the assarah harugei malchus took like 20 minutes and was the most inspiring part of mussaf. But at my new shul they basically just babble it.

    #1100659

    charliehall
    Participant

    Rambam would never have approved of Anim Zmirot either spoken or sung. I go to a shul that does neither.

    #1100660

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I saw in Tshuvos R’ Akiva Eiger, where they bring down his Takanos for his shul, they write that he paskened not to sing anything before Shmoine Esrei. I don’t know if this precedes him or not.

    There is a very simple reason why some Yeshivas don’t sing Kedusha: i heard a mashgiach telling a bochur who davened for the omud not to sing Kedusha, because lots of bochurim who are willing to daven for the omud are too self concious to lead the kehillah in singing, and won’t daven. Therefore they prefer not to make a pressure to sing, so no-one sings.

    #1100661

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think the whole idea of putting parts of davening to melodies (as opposed to nusach) is relatively new, and some yeshivos have tried to resist or at least minimize adopting it.

    #1100662

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Rambam would never have approved of Anim Zmirot either spoken or sung. I go to a shul that does neither.

    Rambam would have never approved of your shul.

    #1100663

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Im aware of a yeshiva that banned singing kel adon about 25 years ago when a bachur at the amud used a tune that the roshei yeshiva did not feel appropriate (before anyone flies off the handle, it was a tune from one of the dr. middos tapes).

    #1100664

    Joseph
    Participant

    How are you differentiating nusach from melodies?

    #1100665

    GoGoGo
    Participant

    yeshiva bochurim tend to have a lot of energy and cant stand still long enough to sing antything.

    #1100666

    flatbusher
    Participant

    gogogo. you are joking, right?

    #1100668

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How are you differentiating nusach from melodies?

    Would you call the nusach for Shabbos chazaras hashatz (for example) a song? I would not, although I’m not familiar enough with musical lexicon to articulate precisely why.

    A common (not necessarily exclusive) characteristic of a melody (song) as opposed to nusach is that it generally is imported from a different context (tish, kumzitz, recording) whereas nusach is exclusive to tefilla.

    Also, nusach generally stays constant from tefilla to tefilla (of the same type), while melodies are more interchangeable. I’m sure there are others.

    #1100669

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    gogogo. you are joking, right?

    I assume so.

    #1100670

    my own kind of jew
    Participant

    Flatbusher, why don’t you just ask the Bal Tefilah, Gabbai, or Rov of one of these minyanim that you are referring to after davening?

    #1100671

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I believe I’ve written this before:

    In the Mir yeshiva, on Yomim Noraim, they don’t sing anything. When Darchei first started having a minyan for the Yomim Noraim, R’ Bender shlita asked R’ Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l if Darchei (which considers itself an offshoot of Mir) should also not sing. R’ Berenbaum replied that people today need singing to stay involved in the davening – without it, they tend to “space out” and can’t concentrate for the entire time.

    This was said for the Yomim Noraim, but perhaps it applies for other times as well?

    #1100672

    Avi Gordon
    Participant

    When the yeshivas were established in Europe, there was a shift of emphasis from choosing a chazzan with a kol na’eh to selecting a tzaddik to lead the davening — regardless of his voice or ability to carry a tune.

    Today there is an emphasis in yeshiva communities to replicate what was done in the yeshivas.

    I heard in the name of a Bnei Brak Rosh yeshiva that the singing should assist our davening, and not the other way around.

    Personally, I love davening at my Yekkie shul where nusach is paramount, very consistent and inspiring.

    #1100673

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When the yeshivas were established in Europe, there was a shift of emphasis from choosing a chazzan with a kol na’eh to selecting a tzaddik to lead the davening — regardless of his voice or ability to carry a tune.

    I didn’t know that, but I can bring a smach to that. The sh’atz says in his teffila: ???????? ??????????? ??????????? ????? ????????

    ????????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???????? ??????

    ?????????? ???????? ??? ????????????

    So apparently the assumption is that those are the things that the sh’atz isn’t: a zakein v’ragil, with a nice beard, and a nice voice, and well liked. Rather, they hire a young beardless jerk with a terrible voice who knows the nussach well.

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