Single parents.

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  • #597632

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If a woman is in her later thirties, and unmarried, is it ok for her to have children without getting married?

    You can do it without violating any issurim, at a fertility clinic.

    Why should she be deprived of the ability to raise a family just because she can’t find a husband?

    I think it is fine.

    #780985

    shein
    Member

    Who will be the father?

    #780986

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No father. They use an anonymous donor.

    #780987

    nystatetrooper
    Participant

    Uuuuuummmmm that’s pretty freaky no?

    #780988

    shein
    Member

    So non-Jewish.

    #780989

    s2021
    Member

    If it is really possible to do without violating issurim, I think it is a nice idea for the mother. For the child I dont know..

    #780990

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    An anonymous father can have serious consequences. The kid can never marry because the father might be Jewish so anyone might be a relative.

    #780991

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    They give you information about the donors, so you can get from a jewish donor I assume.

    #780992

    shein
    Member

    And is there no issurim for a Jewish woman to have a child with a non-Jewish father?

    #780993

    s2021
    Member

    I heard of that Shaila and I heard its tot Assur (because it is assur to have a child with a Jewish male with perfect Yichus who is not ur husband…)

    #780994

    shein
    Member

    They give you information about the donors, so you can get from a jewish donor I assume.

    You said the donor is anonymous. So Mod-42’s issue still exists. The child doesn’t know who his father is and thus cannot marry.

    #780995

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    shein: Imagine it is a test tube baby.

    #780996

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    42: I think the gemara or rishonim there say it is a knas on the guy for doing something so stupid.

    #780997

    shein
    Member

    What’s a test-tube baby have to do with the issue?

    #780998

    adocs
    Participant

    popa – so what? test tube babies still have a biological father.

    #780999

    real-brisker
    Member

    Popa – Whats with these threads you are starting tonight?

    #781000

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    If he is anonymous, can they tell you whether the donor is Jewish? What if he is a mamzer, can they tell you that?

    #781001

    haifagirl
    Participant

    By the way, it was Rav Yuval Cherlow who gave the psak that it’s muttar.

    #781002

    emlf
    Member

    A gut voch.

    PBA, is this another one of your Motza’ay Shabbos ideas?

    #781003

    smartcookie
    Member

    I think it’s a terrible idea for a single woman to have a baby, unless she is ready to wear a sign explaining that she had this baby through a clinic. People will probably never believe her anyway.

    #781004

    oomis
    Participant

    I personally know someone who has done this. Twice. With the haskama of rabbonim in E”Y.

    She didn’t believe she would ever get married (she was around 40), and she wanted children, but she also is frum and would not consider anything that was “nisht kosher.” She asked a shailah of Daas Torah, was told there is no issur, and with a non-Jewish donor in a fertility clinic there was no potential inyan of her children chalilah marrying their own siblings by accident someday. Some years after having both children, she actually met someone and got married a couple of years ago, but too old to have more children at that point. The issur is l’chatchilah to marry a non-Jew, but b’dieved the child born of such a union (if the mom is Jewish), is also Jewish, and there is no taint of mamzerus. Osnat bore a child by Shechem, and that child was married to Yosef.

    The bearing of a child out of wedlock, is typically stigmatized because of the non-tzniusdig actions of the mother and father that led to the pregnancy. If no such activity took place, there were no violations of the laws of tznius or taharas hamishpacha.

    #781005

    mra01385
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba-If a woman is in her later thirties, and unmarried, is it ok for her to have children without getting married?

    You can do it without violating any issurim, at a fertility clinic.

    I actually thought of this idea too a few yrs ago when I was still in shidduchim, (Baruch Hashem I am married now and have a 21mo son.)but I never thought of what the ramifications would be for the child, YW Moderator-42 points out.

    #781006

    bezalel
    Participant

    Popa – Whats with these threads you are starting tonight?

    PBA, is this another one of your Motza’ay Shabbos ideas?

    I think it’s the Havdalah Wine.

    #781007

    a mamin
    Participant

    I would like to remind you there are members hear who are very young!!( including seventh graders) poppa i think you should get some sleep!

    #781009

    always here
    Participant

    JMO~ 1) 7th graders shouldn’t be in the CR. 2) 7th graders shouldn’t be up, awake, & on the internet @ 2:12AM. ..JMO

    #781010

    shein
    Member

    Yuval Cherlow heads some kind of left-wing group in Israel.

    #781011

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    a mamin:

    Might I remind you, I just finished first. Teacher taught how to spell “here”. But you’re right – it’s not such a desirous topic.

    Always:

    I got permission tonight. All night long. Yippee!

    #781012

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t understand oomis’ comment. First it says it’s Muttar, then goes on to say that Bidi’eved the child is not a Mamzer.

    By the way, the child is considered Paggum, whatever that means to you.

    When Rabbanim are Mattir couples to use this method they are always very careful that there should be strict supervision making sure nothing gets mixed up. Although the Gemara is Mashma that someone doing this can marry a Cohen Gadol, I cannot imagine the child not being a Paggum.

    #781013

    Popa-

    I dont know what you ate today that made you come up with all these ideas…

    All I have to say is poor kid. At some point in its life, it will find out either that it has a goyish father or that it can’t marry for fear that it might marry its sibling. And thats besides from the issues it may have from growing up without a father.

    I would think that a woman in her mid to late thirties would rather settle on marrying a guy who was not her ideal, than to do that to her child.

    Theres gotta be a different solution to the shidduch crises. For some reason I dont think this is it

    #781014

    Shrek
    Member

    even if it’s muttar, it does not mean it’s a good idea. those poor kids would be stigmatized for life.

    #781015

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why should they be stigmatized?

    Let’s imagine you can do it where you will know who the father is and he will be jewish. And no issurim were done in the process.

    #781016

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why should they be stigmatized?

    He didn’t sat they should be, he said they would be.

    #781017

    Why not adopt? Or become a foster parent to children who desperately need a parent? Does she want to raise children, or does she feel that she must have the experience of carrying a child and actually giving birth to it?

    Either of the two suggested options will fulfill her desire to be a parent AND be (potentially) beneficial to the child/ren, whereas going the OP’s route will create problems for everyone.

    #781019

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why not adopt? Or become a foster parent to children who desperately need a parent? Does she want to raise children, or does she feel that she must have the experience of carrying a child and actually giving birth to it?

    Either of the two suggested options will fulfill her desire to be a parent AND be (potentially) beneficial to the child/ren

    Come now. Do you really think that a desire to have a child is somehow illegitimate because there are kids who need foster homes?

    #781020

    The desire is not illegitimate, nor will the child be.

    I said her desire to have children biologically would create problems, but I did not attach any adjectives to my description.

    #781021

    Health
    Participant

    Even if Mutter, it’s definitely Ossur to spread this around. So now more women won’t find any need to get married and be Oiver the Issur in S’A!

    #781022

    It pains me to read this post. Is this what we are coming to? My heart goes out for many of these unmarried girls, many of whom were not even given a fair chance except being labeled as picky or don’t know what they are looking for, without even haven ever spoken to them. I hope some shaddchanim out there who so easily make nothing of some of these girls are reading this post.

    I am sure that many of these girls would be excellent mothers, some even better than some mothers who do have a husband, yet i hope they will be mothers in the way Hashem created the world to bring children into this world!

    #781023

    I am not one to judge those who have to make such choices. Let’s not jump to conclusions.

    #781024

    sof davar
    Member

    Forget being stigmatized. As difficult as the situation is for the woman, I think that it would pretty selfish to knowingly bring a child into the world who will not have a father.

    #781025

    oomis
    Participant

    Sof davar, there are MANY children who come into this world and have no father, i.e. he died in the army or in an accident, became ill and died, or the parents divorced. While it may not be an ideal situation, if the mother has a close supportive network, her children will never lack for love.

    As to stigma – only mean spirited people would stigmatize such a child. This is not the Dark Ages. Not everyone can or wants to adopt. If a woman has a biological urge to reproduce if possible, who are we to deny her that? yes, there are kids who need foster homes, but that is not up to us to decide for someone else.

    #781026

    shein
    Member

    What gives her a right to satisfy her urge? Her wanting it is not a license.

    #781027

    HLM
    Member

    I JUST SAW THIS POST AND I WOULD SAY PLEASE ASK YOUR JEWISH ORTHODOX RABBI BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING BECAUSE IT GETS COMPLICATED…

    #781028

    bezalel
    Participant

    Even if Mutter, it’s definitely Ossur to spread this around. So now more women won’t find any need to get married and be Oiver the Issur in S’A!

    You’re just contridicting yourself.

    #781029

    welldressed007
    Participant

    One is being ‘poretz geder’ in this case. Latter of the law spirit of the law. If you want a heter so badly it can be found, however, this does not make it morally or ethically appropriate. Actions are accountable. Think before you do , there are consequences. Stop being selfish!!!!

    #781030

    oomis I feel that you’re comment is not realistic. It is not one person who will stigmatize such a child but the community as a whole. Divorce and death are common and natural situations where a child might lose a parent. There are thousands of such cases within the frum community world wide and even they come with at least a minimal amount of stigma. But children of extra-marital pregnancy by anonymous fathers would understand the events surrounding their conception to be entirely abnormal and become stigmatized on their own. Especially in a family oriented community like ours.

    And is fulfilling biological urges a valid reason for anything? If men would fulfill their biological urges, Father’s Day would by quite confusing. As it is for other races. Is that acceptable?

    #781032

    Shrek
    Member

    single motherhood is the fastest route to poverty. Some women have no choice, they lose their spouse to divorce or death. Just another point to consider.

    #781033

    Health
    Participant

    Bezalel – “You’re just contridicting yourself.”

    Let me see, I really don’t think there is a contradiction. I’ll explain to ones who don’t understand – Even if a single woman finds a Heter to have children without marriage, and this Heter is Ousgehalten, people should not spread this around because this will cause some women to lose some of their desire or all of their desire to get married. Because now they have another way to have kids!

    #781034

    adorable
    Participant

    dont know if its assur or not but it definitely sounds very odd to me. poor child.

    #781035

    haifagirl
    Participant

    poor child.

    A woman was willing to go through whatever it would take, face all kinds of possible ostracism, just to have a child. Can you imagine how much that child is loved? Poor child? Lucky child!

    #781036

    Health
    Participant

    haifagirl – I can understand the sentiment of “poor child”, because let’s say this woman doesn’t have outside support or lots of money in the bank -she now has to choose to either give up working and the kid will be raised in poverty or continue working and not have that much time raising the child. The child will be taken of by strangers most of the day.

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