single peolpe are marriage counsellors?

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  • This topic has 48 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by Toi.
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  • #599118
    Toi
    Participant

    Ever wonder how and why the singles here know everything there is to know about marriage, while the rest of us are still figuring it out?

    #807275
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ever wonder why living race car drivers are the experts on avoiding accidents and the dead ones are still figuring it out?

    #807276

    Not sure why you say that, I haven’t noticed single people giving marriage advice but one thing I’d like to point out: there is much that can be learned just from observing.

    #807277
    agittayid
    Participant

    Ever wonder how and why someone who by some miracle, managed to get himself married, is now an expert on marriage, and feels free to impart his “wisdom” on marriage to others?

    #807278

    i actually spoke to someone who said he had a marriage councelor at a shabbos meal. the councelor had been divorced four times. go figure.

    #807279
    TweetTweet
    Participant

    And how about dating mentors who aren’t married yet and are giving advice

    #807280
    agittayid
    Participant

    “the councelor had been divorced four times”

    The counselor is certainly an expert on getting married.

    Great credentials, 4 certificates.

    #807281
    squeak
    Participant

    I think what popa is saying is that single people can help you avoid marriage.

    Correct me if I misunderstood the analogy.

    #807282
    honolulu
    Member

    yummy- “the shoemakers children didnt have any shoes”

    #807283
    real-brisker
    Member

    And how about when you hear about a marrige mentor that gets divorced. [true]

    #807284

    The same way that most of us who have children were much better parents before we had them than we are now.

    #807285
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Toi; They must know more than you if they managed to stay single.

    😉 You gotta admit there is some truth to that.

    #807286
    aries2756
    Participant

    The person with the most knowledge is the one that has the most experience. Book knowledge is not always as valuable as life experience.

    #807287
    Health
    Participant

    Aries – life experience is only valuable when it’s based on book knowledge. When it’s not, you can basically only do harm!

    #807288
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think what popa is saying is that single people can help you avoid marriage.

    I’m not entirely sure what I was saying. Part of it definitely is that what sounds neat and obvious isn’t always so.

    On the topic at hand, I’m not as convinced as the OP.

    Singles have a lot of opportunity to observe different couples, and see how they interact (like at shabbos meals). I recall once spending shabbos somewhere and knowing before kiddush that the couple did not like each other- which is probably why they had tons of guests.

    Let me tell you, there were plenty of times I was single and eating somewhere and the hosts could have sure used my advice. Maybe I didn’t understand as well as I could have, and maybe I didn’t even understand as well as them. But in that moment, they should have been paying me.

    Also, often not getting married is because you understand how relationships work and know the relationship is not working.

    #807289
    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, I disagree completely. Life experience is much more valuable than book knowledge and common sense tops them both. But if you can link all in a chain and use all tools together then you are using every possible means Hashem has provided for you. Life experience without book knowledge is more valuable than book knowledge without the life experience. But these are just statements that have no value without practical application. Wisdom is acquired in many ways and from many sources. A wise person knows how to guide another whether through experience or through professional assistance. If a person ignores all the resources available then they aren’t as wise as they think they are.

    #807290
    Health
    Participant

    Aries – I’ll give one example to prove you’re wrong. A person has been putting on Tiffilin on his forehead for the last twenty years. He has only life experience, but s/o who is just 13 learned that Tiffilin goes on top of your head. He has no life experience -only book knowledge.

    I’ll repeat -“life experience is only valuable when it’s based on book knowledge”. I could bring lots of examples in every facet of life, but there wouldn’t be place or time to post it all. In the world of medicine, we call practioners incompetent when they only have medical experience without the proper book knowledge!

    #807291
    agittayid
    Participant

    Book knowledge or life experience.

    Are both valuable if they are accompanied by insight, understanding, and empathy.

    #807292
    Health
    Participant

    agittayid – But book knowledge can be valuable without experience, but life experience can’t be valuable without book knowledge!

    #807293
    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, you are entitled to your opinion. As far as I am concerned book knowledge without common sense is worthless. My friend the doctor always said, do you know what they called the guy who was at the bottom of class in med school, the neb?…………………………………………………………………………Doctor! I have had enough experience being the patient in the hospital to tell the newbies with no experience and those with experience. I had one doctor who came over to me in the emergency room when I was taken in by Hatzolah for dehydration, the nurses quickly got me set up and were all over me. This idiot comes in and says, I don’t see any reason to keep you here, so I promptly sat up and threw up all over him. The nurses couldn’t stop laughing.

    #807294
    agittayid
    Participant

    Helping someone with a marriage is not like baking a cake; following the recepie from a book. It requires knowledge yes, but also insight to apply the knowledge.

    As to life experience; ever notice that people might have experience but unless they develop insight they will repeat the same mistakes. Not only in marriage; but in any relationship.

    #807295
    Toi
    Participant

    i just mean to say tht all the singles i know are providing me with knowledge from their vast stores on all areas of marriage. maybe they read something in a for dummys series?

    #807296

    Why would they give you advice? I’m assuming you didn’t ask for it so then it has nothing to do with being single. If a married person gave you unsolicited marriage advice, it would be just as inappropriate.

    #807297
    Health
    Participant

    aries -“As far as I am concerned book knowledge without common sense is worthless.”

    Mostly true.

    “I have had enough experience being the patient in the hospital to tell the newbies with no experience and those with experience.”

    But like I said those with experience – that has to be based on knowledge. You have experience in the hospital, do you think now you can practice medicine? Experience is only valuable based on book knowledge!

    #807298

    Sounds like the child expert who had no children.

    Yes, today many young recently divorced women both here and in Eretz Yisroel are becoming social workers. With some of these fly by night college programs it is a very easy route to take and these people have some money in their pocket to help pay their bills.

    #807299
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    Ms. Critique

    Are you implying that a woman who divorced because her husband became non frum, for example, becomes incompetent to help clients?

    Or are you commenting that it’s solely due to what you consider substandard degrees that makes you cynical?

    #807300
    collegegrad
    Member

    Why can’t a divorced women become a social worker. If you don’t want to take a marriage advice from someone divorced I hear your point, but most social workers are not therapists. Social workers work in nursing homes and hospitals to help patients and their families. They work in the school system and child welfare programs to help kids. Just because someone is divorced they shouldn’t be able to have a career that helps people???????

    #807301

    Why on earth can’t a divorced woman become a marriage therapist? Do you have any idea how many therapists there are out there who only went into this line because they were helped through therapy? Should a cancer patient only go to a doctor who was ill with the same disease to be treated?

    #807302
    Toi
    Participant

    health- your arguement is only considering things that are beyond natural scope ie medicine. i believe that my experience riding a bike will assist me in riding a bike although i havent read up on said subject. your arguement can only apply to things that need particularly rigorous and intense schooling ie medicine or nuclear physics. im sure you can become a mechanic or plumber by spending enough timw working on toilets and cars.

    #807303
    Health
    Participant

    Toi – Skip the “e” in argument.

    No, my statement belongs in every aspect in life.

    Example – you taught yourself how to pedal a bike with your hands and you use your legs to steer. You have been doing this for 10 years, so now if you teach others how to ride a bike, you are teaching them correctly? Of course not.

    The proper way to ride a bike is to pedal with your feet and steer with your hands.

    What your mistake is -what is called book knowledge. Book knowledge is the knowledge of how to do something right. You don’t necessarily have to acquire this from a book. S/o can show you how -like s/o can tell you the right way how to ride a bike!

    So now, does my statement of -“life experience is only valuable when it’s based on book knowledge”, make more sense?

    #807304
    WIY
    Member

    I wouldn’t take marriage advice from a divorced person nor would I take nutrition advice from a fat person or financial advice from a broke person.

    #807305
    dvorak
    Member

    A philosopher (forget who) once said that before he was married he had 6 theories on how to raise children, and now he has 6 children and no theories…

    There’s a lot I was so sure I would never do as a parent until I became a parent. There’s also a lot I was so sure I would never do as a wife until I became a wife. Marriage and parenting- you can read up on them, but you will never be prepared for it until you’re there. Most of it, you pick up as you go. I mean, do you honestly think that people who yell at their spouse think it’s ok to do that? Most people know it’s wrong, but sometimes, in the heat of it, you lose it. Same goes for kids- you think you’ll never give them candy, but on a rough day, you just can’t help it. These are thing you can’t truly understand until you’ve been there.

    #807306
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    WIY

    So a therapist who is in a bad marriage, for example, would be more qualified to give advice than one who had the stamina and courage to leave if there were extenuating circumstances??

    I guess you wouldn’t take marriage advice from Moshe Rabbeinu since he was separated from his wife.

    #807307
    WIY
    Member

    AYC

    No a therapist who couldn’t solve her own “bad” marriage won’t be very good at solving someone else’s.

    That comment about Moshe Rabbeinu is ridiculous. Moshe Rabbeinu separated from his wife because he spoke to the Shechina on a regular basis and wasn’t allowed to be impure from marital relations.

    #807308
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    WIY

    “Moshe Rabbeinu separated from his wife because …”

    Precisely my point.

    You looked at the reason WHY Moshe was separated.

    Here, you didn’t give anyone that consideration. You just painted with one broad stroke.

    #807309
    mytake
    Member

    Not every married person is qualified to give marital advice.

    Not every divorced person is unqualified to give marital advice.

    Not every single person is unqualified to to give marital advice.

    Let’s not oversimplify things. It depends on the particular person, their life experience, maturity, understanding of relationships, hashkafos, and common sense. It also depends on what kind of marriage issues are being discussed.

    #807310
    bpt
    Participant

    For the same reason, kids tell their parents, “you just don’t understand”.

    They mean well, think they have it all figured out. Until they come face-to-face with the real thing.

    THEN, they see why there is no substitute for experience.

    Still, you gotta admire them for trying!

    #807311
    WIY
    Member

    AYC

    Well there’s no way of knowing why the therapist separated and since most marriages are dissolved due to the lack of will to make it work it would seem thatthe divorced therapist doesn’t believe in what she preaches or has no clue what she is talking about or how to put it into practice. Personally I think the best person to take relationship advice from is one who has GREAT relationships.

    #807312
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    I’m with you, Mytake.

    WIY

    “most marriages are dissolved due to the lack of will to make it work”

    How are you qualified to make such a statement?

    “the divorced therapist doesn’t believe in what she preaches or has no clue what she is talking about”

    Again you’re painting with a broad stroke.

    #807313
    Toi
    Participant

    health- in a world of crazys the normal guy is institutionalized. what if i walk with my legs and not my hands? thats not based on book knowledge. if i lick with my tongue- again not book knowledge. what did they do b4 books? vegetate? your idea only sticks to things that cannot be learned from experiance alone. if i can walk without outside assistance i dont need a book. a delayed or special child might, but thats because walking is outside their scope of natural learning. i know an architect who never, once got formal training or schooling and figured it all out by herself. if she never opened a book but still made a career out of it i would say thats not base on book knowledge. and i often add “E”s for emphasis. thanks.

    #807314
    WIY
    Member

    AYC

    All Im saying is that on the surface it makes no sense to see a divorced MARRIAGE COUNSELOR or therapist. There’s no way if knowing why they got divorced but common sense says use someone who has a happy marriage.

    #807315
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    WIY

    “use someone who has a happy marriage”

    And how would you know who does and who doesn’t?

    #807316
    WIY
    Member

    AYC

    You don’t but you know for a fact that the divorced therapist had an unhappy one so when looking for a therapist I think it makes sense to look for one who you can assume and hope has a good marriage versus the one you know for a fact has had a bad one. Im done here. This is a common sense argument you don’t have to agree with me but this isn’t something that needs to be argued. I hope you should never need a therapist but if you ever do Im sure you won’t make the divorced one your first choice unless you know that this person comes very highly recommended and is better than all of the non divorced therapists.

    #807317
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    Miriam Adahan is a wonderful therapist who has authored many books and has helped MANY yidden.

    She lives in Yerushalayim, and yes, is not qualified to treat others based upon your criterion.

    “you know for a fact that the divorced therapist had an unhappy one” Again painting with that broad brush…I know someone who loved her husband but he became frei r”l. Should someone hold that against her?

    “This is a common sense argument”

    Are you saying that your opinion is the only correct one?

    #807318
    WIY
    Member

    Common sense says that someone who is divorced (unless you know for a fact that the divorce was for the exceptional reasons above) would not make a great choice in marriage therapist. If you want coaching on how to get divorced that’s a different story.

    Same thing common sense says the fat nutritionist or “personal trainer” is not the best choice. Im not saying there can’t be exceptions Im only saying what common sense dictates.

    #807319
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    WIY

    “Im not saying there can’t be exceptions”

    NOW we’re talking!

    This is EXACTLY the point that Mytake and I were making. We can’t paint with that broad brush.

    When we include the exceptions, we may actually all be in agreement!

    #807320
    dvorak
    Member

    WIY- what about someone who is divorced but remarried (presumably happily)? Would they be qualified to be a marriage counselor?

    #807321
    Health
    Participant

    Toi -“what did they do b4 books? vegetate? your idea only sticks to things that cannot be learned from experiance alone.”

    It doesn’t appear as if you read my comments. Here I’ll post them again:

    “Book knowledge is the knowledge of how to do something right. You don’t necessarily have to acquire this from a book.”

    #807322
    Toi
    Participant

    k ill call it seichel and mazal put together. dont know why you need to call it that.

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