Singles in The Frum Community

Home Forums Shidduchim Singles in The Frum Community

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 60 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #588105

    sarah_613
    Member

    I am a single in my early 30s. I do not feel that the community makes a place or gives any understanding to anyone who is single and over 25. Everything is geared to couples and families. Why am I considered a competant adult in my office but only a “girl” once I leave? When I go to a relative’s wedding or bar mitzvah, why do you sit me with the kids? Especially when there is separate seating, why can’t you sit me with people who are not talking about finals and teenaged issues?

    And do not assume that there is something wrong with me just because I am single. Today I was standing with 2 people. One asked how a mutual friend of theirs was doing. The other responded, “She’s still single. Which is odd because she is such a nice person. Who knows what hidden issues people have?!” And neither of them seemed to have realized that they just implied that I have some major underlying issue.

    When you get married, do not forget your single friends. I have so many friends who seem to have disappeared once they get married. I understand that you have new and different obligations, but you can still call every once and a while or return my calls. It hurts a lot when you go from asking me to help with planing the vort or wedding but then to never hear from you again after sheva brachos.

    Invite singles for Shabbos meals–it’s such a family-focused time and it is so lonely to make kiddush and motzei alone. Open invitations are nice, but many people don’t feel comfortable inviting themselves over and will feel they are an imposition if they’re not invited for a specific meal.

    There’s so much more to say, but I want to see what kind of response this gets. Some of the ywn commentors can be mean and judgemental, and I don’t want this to turn into something bashing those who are single. Contrary to what some people say, we do not want to be single. But for myself at least, I also don’t want to marry someone just for the sake of being married. I have seen too many friends who did that and who I believe are unhappy.

    #899107

    HaMagnat
    Member

    Sarah_613: Kudos for a great post. I am an ex-single B’H(just got married 6 months ago at 28, to my dear wife who’s 30) and although the challenges of singlehood are diferent for guys and girls, the feeling of estrangement and inferiority are the same. (I used to hate being called “a bocher” – it implies that you’re in a different category as “normal” people, like “a leper”). I can honestly say that what kept my faculties intact was the constant concern of a few married friends. You don’t realize how far an invitation for shabbos or to break a fast goes. Married people should make an effort to call singles rather than the other way around – singles don’t know when it’s a good time to call, whereas singles usually have a freer schedule.

    The only advice I would give (take it or leave it, everyone’s different), is to maintain a sense of humour about the whole thing, especially with your married friends. When I was single, if the single status of someone would come up in a conversation with marrieds (especially if that person was young), I’d say something like “what, he’s not married, what’s his problem? – he must be picky”

    Another thing to keep in mind (a friend told this to me after I comlained about an insensitive comment) was that there’s no manual on how to be a good friend – often people sincerely mean to encourage or make you feel comfortable, and it comes out wrong, or it just has the opposite effect. sometimes you just have to look for the intentions rather than the words said. Not always easy.

    May you find a great husband soon, but until then, just keep being pro-active – if married friends don’t call you, call them (you’re allowed to complain about it to them too). The less you see yourself as handicapped, the less others will treat you that way. (hopefully).

    #899108

    burich
    Participant

    Agreed.

    It’s come to the point that newly married friends don’t call/invite for fear of offending the single friend and setting off a storm of letters and postings to the Yated and YW. What can I say? What can’t I say? Is it ok if I mention my spouse or kids? What if I mention them by mistake? You know, it’s just too complicated right now. I’ll just call later.

    #899109

    intellegent
    Member

    Wow. It is great that you posted this. Although, there is not much for anyone to do as far as changing the world. Thanks for the awareness!

    You mentioned about inviting singles. I am just wondering, these things can be very sensitive. How does one know if the “single” would be offended or would be overjoyed at an invitation?

    On a similiar note, it is often almost impossible to say the right thing in certain situations. Can you give some tips on what’s appropriate to say and what not?

    I’m sure you had your fair share of (unfortunately) many innappropriate comments and hopefully some thoughtful things were said to you.

    So any tips?

    #899110

    intellegent
    Member

    I meant to say that I can’t think of doing anything on a GRAND scale, it is good to be made aware of how feel to know how to act.

    #899111

    sarah_613
    Member

    HaMagnat: Thanks!

    burich: Why wouldn’t they talk about their husbands and kids? They’re a big part of their lives. It would be weird if they DIDN’T talk about them. Talk about other things as well, but don’t tiptoe around the largest part of your life!

    intelligent: Why would anyone be offended by an invitation? Don’t phrase the invitation as, “You’re single, so you must be lonely, so why don’t you come for a meal this Shabbos.” Instead, just say, “We’d love to have you this Shabbos lunch. Would you like to come?”. Don’t just cold-call people you don’t know unless you can give a good reason–like that you heard the person has an interest that’s similar to yours or something similar. Of course, I’m only speaking for myself here!

    As for the right thing to say in other situations, singles are people, too. Just talk to me like I’m a regular person. Don’t dwell on my singleness. I have other things on my life to talk about as well. If you have a shidduch idea, ask what I’m looking for, but don’t do it on front of a bunch of random people. I find that very embarassing.

    One thing not to say–at chasunahs, don’t concentrate on my singleness. I am very happy for the kallah. Don’t ask me if it’s hard. If it is, you are making it harder. If it isn’t, you may have just made it hard. I’ve been at younger siblings’ and cousins’ weddings when people have come up to me, give me a big hug, and say something awful, like, “I am sure you wish that were you.” No, I am happy for the kallah. But I don’t need my singleness (i.e. my differentness) to be called out to everyone in the general vicinity.

    #899112

    shindy
    Member

    Sarah_613. Thank you for your post, I really should invite more singles to our home. Your post also reminds me to be thankful for what I have. May you soon find your bashert! What is also hard are those who are divorced and have children. We have to remember them as well, they don’t have a husband to take their son to shul, they feel like a third wheel with married friends but not much in common with people that don’t have kids.

    #899113

    chaimdovid
    Member

    As a single, I find it very uncomfortable when people ask “what are you doing about shidduchim?” At 35, it hurts enough. Then when I ask them if the person if he/she knows of anyone, they say I should talk to a shadchan. Thanks. But I beleive I could have figured that out by myself. So my advice is don’t mention the issue unless you are able to do something constructive about it.

    #899114

    chaimdovid
    Member

    Don’t ask older singles what they are doing about shidduchim unless you have a specific shidduch in mind or know of a particular shadchan with whom you are PERSONALLY familiar. Telling someone that he he has to get serious about it or that there are shadchanim listed in the phonebook is not only embarrassing, but it is an insult to the single’s intelligence. Also, don’t ask singles where they eat on Shabbos unless you intend to invite them for a specific meal. I’ve been in that situation before and I found it very uncomfortable.

    #899115

    intellegent
    Member

    Sometimes, people have very good intentions but the outcomes are AWFUL. It’s similar with people who wait a couple of years to have a baby and every time someone else has a baby or puts on maternity they have to feel like the biggest nebach!

    I am married UNDER 2 years and already avoid telling certain family members when someone who got married after me is expecting/had a baby because the inevitable is, “Is it hard for you?” And if it is hard for me do I have to share that information with you???

    I hope you all enjoy your life as it is right now and get a Shidduch very soon and continue to enjoy life along with the addition to it…

    #899116

    Joseph
    Participant

    “wait a couple of years to have a baby”?

    What religion are they?

    #899117

    sarah_613
    Member

    chaimdovid and intellegent: I completely agree with you. It’s one thing for a close friend to ask more personal questions–but only if they’re good friends and feel out if you even want to talk about the subject. If they know how you feel, they can help you talk things out. But it really bothers me when it’s the first thing I’m asked by perfect strangers. First of all, I don’t know them, so why are they asking me something that’s so personal that they can be sure has been brought up by parents and close friends multiple times? And it also implies that it’s the most important and first thing thing they see about me. If you are asking for a constructive reason (you may have a shidduch in mind, etc.), that’s fine, but if you’re asking because you just want to know, please don’t. We know we are single, as we’ve been doing our hishtadlus to try to change that fact.

    And about shidduchim in general…. People often tell “older” singles that they are being picky. Part of the reason that is is because the people who are redt to us are sometimes simply, “Single guy, single girl, they’d be perfect.” Am I being picky for not wanting to go on a date with someone 30+ years my senior?? I was told that I was. Or the best was when I was redt to someone from another country who did not speak English or Hebrew, and I was told by the shadchan that then we would have no communication problems because we would not be able to communicate! Is this being picky? I was told it was. All it says is that (especially if this is a shadchan who also doesn’t know you/your family) hopes that if they make enough crazy shidduchim that maybe one will work so they will get paid. It is not fair to either party. If we would go out, there are expenses that are paid on a first date (travel, etc.), as well as an afternoon or evening wasted on what you may know was not a good reason to redt a shidduch. Plus, the more “bad” dates (which often happen because the shadchanim are not doing their jobs), the harder it gets to make yourself go on future dates. I used to be so optimistic before dates, but it’s getting harder and harder to have a positive attitude beforehand. Have a reason to set two people up rather than simply that they’re both single.

    And to parents of singles: Yes, we know we are single. We don’t need to hear it all the time. I do not want to be disrespecful to my parents and tell them how much they are hurting me because it would hurt them probably to hear it from me. So I am saying this from this forum (and I have no idea if my parents will see this, and if they do, they will now know it’s their daughter because there are a lot out there in the same parsha) because I’m sure there are parents of singles out there reading it, so please think about if your daughters (and single sons) may feel the same way. I know they want to see me married. I want to see me married, too. But I do not need to be reminded every time we talk or you see me. I love you, and I know you are saying these things because you love me. But please see me as your daughter who has (I think) some good things about me and that there is more to me than just being The Single Daughter. I’ve tried so hard to be a good daughter from the time I was a small child, but it seems like the one thing I’ve done wrong (even though I’ve tried to do it right) is the one thing that sticks out in your mind.

    #899118

    intellegent
    Member

    Joseph-

    Woops! That came out bad! I should have re-read what I wrote. I did not mean “wait to have a baby” as the secular world waits a few years. I meant waiting for H-m for that right time whenever Hashem sees fit. Many people benefitting from Bonei Olam are quite religious I would think!

    sarah_613 and e/o else,

    Just keep in mind that most of these people have really good intentions. Try to realize that they don’t realize that they are doing something wrong. It sounds obsurd but it’s true! (They say the road to gihinom is paved with good intentions…Don’t take it literally Ch”V but it definitely has some truth!)

    #899119

    yoshi
    Member

    It’s a hard out there in the single world sometimes, especially when you have people (you don’t even know) bombarding you with a list of names of other single individuals, or asking you what type of guy you’re looking for, and then go into more personal questions.

    Literally the year I finished high school I had people go to my mother asking what type of guy Im looking for, or telling her she knows a guys for me. First of all I never met this woman, so how would she know the guy for me? I also used to work in a kosher store in town, and I would have people telling me they have “the perfect” guy for me. MY response was, Sorry Ma’am, I am not looking right now. The look of shock I got from them was absolutely insane! Then they would proceed with questions like, how old are you, I would say I’m 18, and they would say, “and you’re not looking to date??? They were so confused! I did get married at 21 (we dated for over 3 months, even though we both knew we were meant to be only 2 weeks into it, then got married 3 months after that) , but before I had gotten engaged, people would say, oy nebach, that poor girl is STILL single. I was 21!! What’s the deal??

    It’s sad when people start jumping to conclusions as to why someone could possibly be single over the age of 20! They start saying, maybe there’s something wrong with that person or something wrong with their family. Then there are some single individuals become so terrified and feel hopeless that they RUSH into marriage the first chance they get, without thinking about how great the commitment is to be married, and how many years they have to live with this person. If they “settle” for someone or marry for the wrong reasons, it can put great stress on the marriage.

    I just wish they didn’t stereotype the single people who in their opinions are “getting old.” If you want a marriage to be successful, you can’t rush the whole process. Things take time, so let it be. A good friend of mine recently got married who is over the age of 30, and she is the most incredible, smart, sweetest, absolutely beautiful person I know, there was nothing wrong with her past, or who she was, yet people always thought negatively about her because of her age status.

    Yes some of us are lucky to find our true soul mate, our besherit fast, but it takes time for others, and it’s not because there is something wrong with them, it’s just one of those things that happen, and sometimes take time. Be a little more sensitive towards people, especially when you don’t fully know this person. Once you start stereotyping these individuals, you make it even harder for them to find a mate, with all the fabricated stories being thrown around town.

    Now onto having a baby back to back or waiting,

    Every (respectable) OBGYN will tell a women to wait before trying to conceive until their bodies are recovered, and to make sure she is emotionally balanced. Some women recover faster then others.

    Also, you should not rely on the government, or the community to support your entire family, so if there is a family who is terribly struggling financially, maybe they should wait until things get less overwhelming. The cost alone to have a baby is well over $20,000, and that is not taking into consideration, C-Section, or God forbid, complications. Plus a child needs a lot of attention for their mental and emotional growth, if you can’t handle more than 2 or 3 babies then having another one after another after another… is only harming the children. When you get married, and are starting a family, be responsible in your actions, talk to your Rav before making major decisions when you think you are obligated to do certain things.

    #899120

    feivel
    Participant

    i hope you do not find this heartless

    but fakhert, the other way around, the Rambam states that to attribute ones misfortune or unhappiness to others is a way of cruelty. there is a Passuk (or perhaps a

    Chazal, i forget the source) that no good thing, or no damage comes from Hashems creations, without the permission of the Boreh, Yisborach.

    it is not our way to view ourselves as victims of others, to be concerned with others ways (unless we are able to properly correct them).

    you need not concern yourself with the insensitivities of others, you must not nurse grudges. this is not permitted, and it will not lead to an improvement in your situation.

    you need be concerned only with yourself. how do you treat others? how sensitive are you to others needs? how can you improve yourself? do you recognize that your troubles come only from Hashem? you must realize this and increase the intensity of your Teffilos. Daven for others who are single and do not wish to be. Daven with great Kavanah for them.

    Rabbi Ephraim Wachsman brings a different interpretation to the Amirah that” if you Daven for others and you need it, you will be answered first.”

    “if you need it”, if you NEED that the other person be answered, if you feel for them deep in your heart, then YOU will be answered.

    #899121

    intellegent
    Member

    I really did not mean to start this discussion. I don’t think it belongs in this forum. It came out wrong. I explained that already. And, Yoshi, don’t make decisions so quickly according to your last paragraph. I think everyone should speak to their own das torah about these issues. It does NOT belong on YWN!!! No way Ho zay! (jose?)

    #899122

    intellegent
    Member

    I heard from a very respectable rebetzen (Not some fancy shmantzy silly principle in an e”y sem…) a really brilliant woman, who said that when you cry/shed tears from something that someone did to you, it is very bad because it can cause a kitrug or something like that on that person. So if you find yourself very hurt, you can actually take those same tears and turn it into a tefilla and that tefilla is considered a tefilla that was said with tears which is very powerful! (even though the tears were not originally brought out from tefilla!)

    #899123

    sarah_613
    Member

    I am not attributing my being single to any people. And this kind of branched off from the original intent of my post which was to just ask that singles be treated as a part of the frum community at large, rather than being in limbo between childhood and adulthood, regardless of their age. intellegent had asked what things to say or not say. I said (and will repeat again): treat us like the regular people we are who just happen to be single.

    There is the inyan of ona-as devarim. And lashon hara. Both of which show that words can hurt. I don’t think that I nurse grudges against people who say insensitive things. But when things are said, they can hurt at that moment. intellegent asked what things could help minimize that hurt/pain, so those are the kinds of things that chaimdovid and I mentioned.

    #899124

    sarah_613
    Member

    This is resurrecting an old post. Except instead of being a single in my early 30s, I’m still single–but not in my early 30s. Having just spent a yom tov in which I was invited out for some meals but was alone for others, I’m renewing my plea to invite singles.

    And I’ll also renew my plea to treat singles like adults. For one of the meals where I was invited out, I was the only adult seated at the kids’ table. The oldest was maybe 11 years old. I wasn’t sure if I was invited to be a babysitter or what, but I am a grown adult. I felt like just going home and eating chocolate.

    I won’t recap the whole original post. But 4 years later, it is all still true.

    #899125

    WIY
    Member

    sarah_613

    Maybe use Shabbat dot com. Google it.

    Btw I dont know if you have thought of this or it has been recommended to you, but maybe ask a true friend or relative who will be brutally honest with you but only someone who knows you well the following question. “In your opinion, why do you think I am still single? I want brutal honesty so dont be afraid of embarrassing me.”

    I once did this with something else and it hurt like crazy but it really helped me move forward and change some important areas of my life.

    #899126

    shein
    Member

    Are you working as hard to change your status from single to married as you are working for singles rights?

    #899129

    princess17
    Member

    shein -she probably is and thats not a nice comment.

    did u try zivugzone.com ?

    #899131

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I would like to add that singles are not always sitting at home waiting to be invited. Sometimes we actually (gasp!) make our own meals.

    When you invite a single, and she respectfully declines, change the topic. Pushing will only push her away. At least it will if I’m the one you’re pushing.

    And remember, until your friends, who are your age, are having grandchildren, don’t call yourself an “older” single. Thanks.

    #899132

    sarah_613
    Member

    Shein, two posts four years apart does not, I think, make me a professional campaigner for singles’ rights. I think I’ve worked a bit harder than that in “changing my status.”

    Wiy, not a bad idea. I’ll think about who a good person would be to ask.

    Haifagirl, I do make my own meals. But it is just lonely!!

    #899133

    amichai
    Participant

    we are friendly with a man in his early 4o’s and he put an ad in our daily list here in our neighborhood, for single, men and women to call him if they need places to eat for shabbat or chag, and he knows families that invite .we have him over once a month , because he made alot of friends in our area. thank you for posting and reminding us to reach out more.

    #899136

    mommamia22
    Participant

    I really don’t like the term “older single”.

    Who defines what “older” is? (a rhetorical question).

    #899138

    Health
    Participant

    sarah_613 -“This is resurrecting an old post. Except instead of being a single in my early 30s, I’m still single–but not in my early 30s.”

    How about broadening your horizons a bit?

    There are men never married, divorced and widowed in their late 40’s -early 50’s. How about considering one of them?

    Don’t forget you have a time clock regarding kids -they don’t!

    #899139

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I had a great definition of “older.” The mods didn’t like it. 🙁

    #899140

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Health – Men DO have biological clocks, they are just less obvious than women’s. And while sometimes people who are decades apart in age do just fine together, people of the same generation are more likely to find common ground.

    #899141

    Ðash®
    Participant

    I heard from a very respectable rebetzen (Not some fancy shmantzy silly principle in an e”y sem…) a really brilliant woman, who said that when you cry/shed tears from something that someone did to you, it is very bad because it can cause a kitrug or something like that on that person. So if you find yourself very hurt, you can actually take those same tears and turn it into a tefilla and that tefilla is considered a tefilla that was said with tears which is very powerful! (even though the tears were not originally brought out from tefilla!)

    So instead of warning people not to hurt others, we just reverse the roles of victims and perpetrators.

    (And yes, I know I’m reponding to an old post of someone who hasn’t posted in two years)

    #899142
    #899143

    welldressed007
    Participant

    Try Shabbat.com

    Places to eat for Shabbos, shidduchim,jobs

    One stop shop, not limited to NYC or the surrounding areas, try it you might just be surprised

    ??? ????

    ???

    ??? ????? ???? ???

    Opportunities do not fall into our laps, we make them happen with help from H-Shem

    #899144

    Health
    Participant

    This obviously is what she has been doing till now and it’s not working. I’m sure she goes out with 30 year olds. Are there 30 y.o. whom only go out with girls in their twenties? Probably, but you can’t force them to go out with girls their same age.

    How come so many women can’t think out of the box?

    I know so many women in their 40’s and 50’s who can’t have kids anymore. Yes, they can still get married, but they are limited to men who have kids already and don’t want anymore and are either divorced or widowed. There aren’t a lot of men like this!

    “Men DO have biological clocks, they are just less obvious than women’s.”

    Yes, they do. Somewhere in the 70’s or 80’s. That’s why I posted this above:- “Don’t forget you have a time clock regarding kids -they don’t!”

    This is a lot different than women. If you went to college -you’d have probably learnt this in Biology.

    #899145

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Haifagirl, I do make my own meals. But it is just lonely!!

    It’s only lonely if you eat them by yourself. Invite somebody.

    #899146

    ChanieE
    Participant
    #899147

    ChanieE
    Participant

    I have no idea who, if anyone, the original poster has been going out with. It seems that while neither men nor women are perfect and we all have issues, the men are pickier than the women and it seems to be much tougher for a 30-something woman to get a date than for a man of the same age.

    #899148

    shmoel
    Member

    Chanie –

    It isn’t a false sense of security. Like you said, men have a much easier time getting a date and getting married at any age or status compared to women. Which explains why older men often marry young women.

    And there is no biological degradation until at least the late-50’s.

    #899149

    ChanieE
    Participant

    The scientific literature indicates that it starts earlier.

    #899150

    shmoel
    Member

    The literature doesn’t indicate it starts nearly as early as you indicated.

    #899151

    haifagirl
    Participant

    The literature I’ve read says it begins after 40.

    #899152

    ChanieE
    Participant

    I guess that depends which studies you read … Interested parties should contact their doctors instead of relying on coffee room experts 🙂

    #899153

    I dont think anyone feels for older singles more than my friends and myself, because we all have very close older single male and female relatives.

    BUT- theres always a but unfortunately-

    1. I recently spoke to a very well known and highly regarded Rov about this topic. He said “something has to be done”. I said- short of creating new 30/40/50 year old guys, theres not much that can be done as far as a good solution. The Rov replied that girls and parents have to realize that girls have a small window of opportunity to look for a Shidduch- in their early twenties. After that it becomes much more difficult. They have to realize this when they become that age. It only gets harder for most girls after that.

    Unfortunately I cant disagree.

    Comfort often sets in and some singles refuse to date. Without dating, the potential for getting married very much decreases.

    Parents have to realize this when their single is younger and they have more input.

    2. Someone told me that recently an older single girl wrote to the Mishpacha (I think) about how she was a guest at a Rov’s house. The Rov said he has the solution for older singles if the older singles would only want to hear it.

    He said it would be very nice if everyone was able to live their dreams, and marry the type of person they always envisioned, but thats impossible.

    The girl understood the Mashal and married a boy she would have never married years before. She had children and was writing to say how happy she was.

    Consult your Rov. He can guide you.

    And yes, while singles search, they should be treated as adults and with respect. They should never be abandoned by their friends, as is often the case with hundreds of reasons, none of them valid.

    Gmar Tov.

    #899154

    tahini
    Member

    I am shocked to be in total agreement with Health on this.

    In the cold light of day it is easier for an older man to find a spouse than an older woman and of course the basic reason is the biological clock, sure there is some evidence that older men may not be as fertile but plenty of older men have children into their fifties and beyond. We women do not, end of( unless you want to consider egg donorship and surrogacy).

    A relationship between two adults is based on mutual attraction and shared values, single ladies of 35+ should never be under estimated nor should they underestimate their male equivalents in their forties etc. Grow up and realise good things come in all packages and all ages, I know of quite a few girls in their 30s who married older men. They seem happy and content with a Jewish home. Some had children some did not, but they found someone they could share their life with, and that is a pretty special thing in itself.

    Marriage is not a shopping trip with a list of criteria but an intimate relationship for two, not their community, not their friends but them alone. Once people realise this and stop asking friends for feedback etc life would be much easier for those seeking a partner.

    #899155

    shmoel
    Member

    Agreed. There is nothing wrong with older men marrying younger women. It is a simcha every time it happens (as it often does.)

    #899156

    tahini, “In the cold light of day it is easier for an older man to find a spouse than an older woman and of course the basic reason is the biological clock”

    Lav Dafka.

    How about the many older divorced/widowed men who have zero interest in having more children, but obviously much interest in marrying a less wrinkled face?

    #899157

    shmoel
    Member

    A less wrinkled faces brings with it more children.

    #899158

    shmoel, many want the less wrinkled faces and stipulate NO MORE KIDS.

    #899159

    shmoel
    Member

    MSS: In the religious Jewish community, we allow G-d to determine the number of children a couple has. It is against our Torah to “stipulate” a limitation upon the number of children.

    #899160

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not “against the torah” to stipulate how many children you have.

    I know someone who worked for planned parenthood in Orange County and many of her patients were chassidim (At least she called them chassidim) who were working to limit the number of children.

    #899161

    shmoel, ” It is against our Torah to “stipulate” a limitation upon the number of children”

    Right you are!

    Halevei that Shmiras Hamitzvos k’Hilchasam would be the case with everything all across the board, involving every Mitzvah, without looking for legal (mutar) loopholes when desired.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 60 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending