March 11, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #595641snapplegrlMember
Do you sit next to opposite gender on plane (diff then a train or concert which are shorter )or do you make a ruckus and make stewardess find someone to change seats with you? im talking about when u alone and cant change with family member..
im totally uncomfortable knocking my hand head into a man.. but then again i think its a chillul hashem to get stewardess involved and make the whole plane move around and delay the flight.. im flying again soon. so wondering what to do.. a solution would be when u pick an available seat online before the flight Elal should write M or F on the occupied seats..lolMarch 11, 2011 5:01 am at 5:01 am #749709s2021Member
I would be uncomfortable to sit next to a jewish guy.. a non jew for some reason I wouldnt mind. I guess cuz he would be clueless where as the frum guy would also be uncomfortable and it would turn all awkward. But I prob wouldnt do anythin id just secretly hope he would switch seats himself..March 11, 2011 5:10 am at 5:10 am #749710
s2021, That’s an interesting observation that you’d feel uncomfortable next to a Jewish guy, but not so much next to a non-Jewish guy. I think the issurim between a Jewish male and female are greater than between a non-Jewish male and Jewish female. Perhaps this sensitivity is a result of that.March 11, 2011 5:16 am at 5:16 am #749711
actually when i was flying to florida first class i was sitting next to an old dude who refused to switch with my sister, so we both sat alone….that was fine, except he slept the whole time so i hadta jump over him to see my sister and the guy sitting next to her was drinking and chilling with the stewardess the whole time.
on my way home from brussels earlier this year, i got the WORST SEAT EVER!!!! yup thats rite, the last seat in the back near the bathroom next to the window, i was chlostrophobic even before i say down….(but dont worry it gets better)….a frum guy with a long white beard comes with his carry on luggage to sit next to me…i asked him to switch because i really wanted the aisle seat, he said okay….he sat down and pulled out a plastic board, which he put up as a mechitza…i was crying and the nice steward gave me napkins and asked if i was okay, (he asked again later which was very nice..go jet airways!!!!) anyways this “rabbi” as i refer to him, shoved his gemara in my face and told me to read…something about tamid bsimcha…ummm i was not in the mood. but anyways when we landed i lent him my cellphone and he called his son to pick him up and he drove me home too….in the car i overheard his son ask abt his flight and he mentioned he had requested an aisle seat, i felt so so so bad that i took this old guys seat. oh well it was def an experience!!!March 11, 2011 5:38 am at 5:38 am #749712
Seating is the WORST part of flying. I feel my personal space definitely violated. The way guys next to you take up a seat and a half (right, the half occupying your territory), bumping, touching.. my name does not do well to describe my feelings. Sometimes, however, you’ll find a nice airline personnel willing to accommodate you. That’s zeeskeit!March 11, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #749713smartcookieMember
For some reason, I would also hve a bigger problem sitting near a Frum Male, than a Non Jewish male.
Whatever the case is, I hate airplane seats too! Chlostrophobic! (Spelling?)March 11, 2011 6:40 am at 6:40 am #749714
I flew recently with a nursing baby and sat next to a young chassidish man. I was very uncomfortable and I think he was even more. Every time I nursed, it was clear he wanted to disappear. He had another woman on the other side of him so he was clearly in an awkward situation. I would have switched with him except that I really needed the aisle seat because I had a squirmy baby on my lap.March 11, 2011 6:52 am at 6:52 am #749715
I have no problem sitting next to a man.March 11, 2011 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #749716mamashtakahMember
I always request an aisle seat, because I like to be able to get up and move around at my own convenience. It would not bother me to sit next to a woman, as I don’t find a need to use both armrests. I would switch if asked, as long as I get an aisle seat in return. (I also would not want to sit near families with babies or toddlers, but there’s not much one can do about that.)March 11, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #749718A23Participant
I definitely see this issue where frum people would rather sit next to a non-Jew on the train.March 11, 2011 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #749719SacrilegeMember
Mother in Israel
Bottles for a plane!! (Geez)March 11, 2011 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #749720
My most uncomfortable flight ever was to Israel – I booked it at 9 pm and was on the flight by 7 pm the following day. I got the last bookable seat on the plane.
I was 16 at the time. My seat was a middle seat between two large men. The man by the window was regular large (as in, slightly spilled over the seat but not morbidly obese), enough to encroach my space and make my uncomfortable. The other man was enormous enough that he should have paid for two seats. I was going to cry when about an hour into the flight, he took off his belt and unbuckled his pants. I guess he was really uncomfortable. I slept as much as possible.March 11, 2011 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #749721
Whenever we came across such a situation, we mentioned it as soon as we got on the plane and the steward(s)(ess) were very understanding and accomodated us. Sometimes by looking around you can fix it yourself. We fly El Al but on a trip in U.S.A. last year it was also taken care of very nicely, without a fuss.
Just be polite and ask!March 11, 2011 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #749722charliehallParticipant
If this is really an issue you can always buy two seats.March 11, 2011 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #749723
I recently had a flight where I sat next to a mother (35 +/-) / daughter (14 +/-) and listened to how truly obnoxious teens can be. From the conversation, it was a single mom, carrear 1st, 2nd and always (except for skiing trips with teen), and all I could think was, Ashrenu, mah tov chelkenu!
(And what good kids I have) .
From my experinece, women hardly ever bother male co-travellers, so its not an issue for me to be seated next to a woman. If you don’t try and be chatty, you can fly for hours without a sound.
Also helps that my “geshtel” broadcasts lound and clear: married, frum, and not open to dialouge.March 11, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #749724
bpt – How does your “geshtel” broadcast married?March 11, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #749725apushatayidParticipant
In 20 years of commuting to and from Brooklyn, Manhattan and NJ on the NYC subway, NJ Transit and Path, I have found it much easier (relaxing and enjoyable if such words could be used to describe a commute) to sit next to non jewish females than males of any religion. Frum females, especially married ones seem to be highly uncomfortable of males, of any color, race or religion and particularly frum males next to them. It appears that the proliferation of ipods, tablets etc have made people less aware of their surroundings and people are becoming less aware (concerned?) of who is sitting or standing next to them.March 11, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #749726
I have found it much easier (relaxing and enjoyable if such words could be used to describe a commute) to sit next to non jewish females than males of any religion.
Why do you find it more comfortable to sit next to gentile females than next to gentile males?March 11, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #749727mdpaMember
I flew to Israel alone recently so was able to accomodate others who needed to switch (families separated, etc.) and did so twice. But when the person next to me was asked to switch with a man who was sitting next to a mother who had to nurse during the flight I offered to swith b/c I thought I’d rather sit next to a woman and an infant than a man- I had visions of falling asleep and waking up with my head on his shoulder! However when I switched it wasn’t a mother with an infant it was a mother with a toddler so whenever she nursed I got kicked in the kidneys. And I got chewed up smushed cracker all over me and my pillow taken. Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20 and I would’ve much rather have sat next to the man but we all survived!March 11, 2011 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #749728
” How does your “geshtel” broadcast married? “
One look at me, and you can tell. Descriptions won’t do it justice; you can just tell.
Um, I know its a free country, but that was really beyond reasonable. Could you not have gone to the restroom? I know, its your right to do so, and most likely you wore a coverup, but still, very unexpected from one us.
I mean, how would you feel if some wise-cracker teen whipped out his cell phone and posted your kid having breakfast on Facebook?
editedMarch 11, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #749729aries2756Participant
I think that was an excellent idea bringing your own mechitza. How clever and honest of him. In addition how kind and generous of him to give you his seat just because you asked. On the other hand, you didn’t realize that other people ask for the isle seat for the same reasons you do. That is something to think about.March 11, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #749730Mayan_DvashParticipant
Grandmaster, there are a few signs: a wedding ring says married. Style of dress (not-loud colored fabric that actually covers more of the body). Not open to dialog can be accomplished many ways. There will always be people who ignore or are clueless to those signs
;March 11, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #749731
I always make sure to not shower for a week before my flight, so that if a girl is sitting next to me, she won’t be interested.
But I usually have a whole row to myself anyway. Dunno why.March 11, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #749732
I can’t answer for her, but when I’ve flown with my infant, I had to basically nurse the whole flight. I was lucky to be at a window, with my mother next to me (bumped up to first class!!!).
Never mind that airplane bathrooms are totally gross and there is no room to nurse comfortably and there are so few bathrooms to use…
I have no problem nursing in public and someone photographing me because nothing inappropriate is showing.March 11, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #749733
bpt – I wholeheartedly agree with your admonishment for Mother in Israel regarding the inappropriateness of her doing that in public.
Mayan – The wedding ring is only applicable for a woman. And even then, how would you know if it is a wedding ring or just stam a plain ring. I’m not sure how style of dress/loud colors is relevant to this point.March 11, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #749734
“a wedding ring says married”
Mine is worn around my ankle, with a chain and ball attached to it.March 11, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #749735
OK, SJS, I guess this must be a woman thing that men cannot understand.
But I will say this. There have been times that I am on the train and someone sits down next to me in attire that is, um, shal we say, not becoming of a lady, and since it is a free counrty, and she has the right to do and wear what she pleases, I simply get up and move elsewhere.
Don’t see how I could do that on a plane. (short of a parachute)March 11, 2011 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #749736
aries, ur rite and thats why i felt so bad afterwards(even after the gemarah incedent, i thought it was nice that he offered me a ride home).
i just remembered when i flew to chicago for a day, i was sitting in the aisle next to two guys who i think were on business…anyways as soon as the flight took off i put my tray table down and put my head down to sleep….i heard the announcement that the plane was decending and we must put our seats and tray tables up, but i was still half a sleep so i didnt pick my head up. i heard the guys laughing and i heard one say to the other something about waking me up….finally a stewardess came by and ‘woke’ me up. i turned to look at the smirking guys and asked them what was so funny???? they asked me if i had a dream that i was falling because i was holding onto the tray table so tightly….on top of that i had a red mark on my face…which they told me about but he said i looked fine, anyways my point being….i am always very entertaining.March 11, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #749737
bpt, you haven’t seen those personal mechitzas they sell for flying? They cover your entire face! Works great 🙂
If I were flying and sitting next to a frum man, I would warn him that I would be nursing during the flight, and if that made him uncomfortable to make arrangements with the flight attendants.March 11, 2011 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #749738
What is wrong with nursing in your seat? It is a pain to go to the bathroom.
When I need a bathroom on a plane, I just put a blanket on my lap, and go in a bottle. No big deal.March 11, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #749739
SJS: And if the flight was full, and there were no available alternative seating, that would be tough nuggies on him, and you would nurse next to him?March 12, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #749740guy-ochoMember
believe it or not, I once sat between a husband and wife. they specifically didn’t sit next to each other because one wanted the window and one the aisle. I switched my window seat to sit in between them and ended up sitting next to a man and woman at the same time. Notice: you can’t tell from my post if i am male or female. lolMarch 12, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #749741
I never thought I could be offended by a bunch of strangers on the internet, but this thread has proven me wrong. I read the responses to my post over an hour ago and am still walking around brooding about it, so I figure I better speak my mind.
Firstly, I’ll say that I am not one who nurses in public. On the contrary, I am very, very opposed to it. If my baby needs to eat in the mall, I’ll find myself a public bathroom and nurse there, no ifs, ands, or buts. If we’re in the park and she needs to eat, we all go home so I can nurse privately. Even in my own home, I don’t nurse in front of my older children, even though I’m always completely covered when I nurse. I go into my room and lock the door every time I have to nurse. Maybe the fact that I’m usually so makpid on this is the reason that I took everyone’s comments so hard.
Um, I know its a free country, but that was really beyond reasonable. Could you not have gone to the restroom? I know, its your right to do so, and most likely you wore a coverup, but still, very unexpected from one us. “
Very unexpected? Every single frum woman I have spoken to about this sits in her seat and nurses on the plane. The restroom on a plane is not an option like the restroom in a mall. Firstly, the smell in there is usually terrible due to lack of appropriate ventilation. I know there are women who feel feeding in the bathroom is not fair to the baby, and as I mentioned before, I’m not one of those. But I can’t put either one of us through sitting in there for 20 minutes when it smells like that.
Secondly, there aren’t enough bathrooms on the plane for me to occupy one for a 20-minute feeding. There are always lines for the bathroom and it would be unfair to everyone to do that. And the incessant knocking on the door would be very disturbing.
I am always completely covered when I nurse. There is nothing showing that would make anyone uncomfortable. I do understand that it can make someone uncomfortable just to know that I’m nursing, and that’s why in most situations I make sure to nurse privately. The plane is one of those situations when there really is no other option. And that’s why if you take a survey, you’ll find that even frum women generally stay in their seat to nurse when on a plane.
And Sac, not all babies can take bottles. I’m not opposed to bottle feeding in general, but this is a baby with a chronic medical condition which makes it impossible for her to eat formula.March 12, 2011 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #749742
blankets can cover up everything – if hold baby in arm whole time, he needn’t know when baby is nursing or not, and he definitely doesn’t see a thing.March 13, 2011 1:22 am at 1:22 am #749743i said soMember
what do i care who sits near me?!
whomever wants to sit next to me is welcome too!March 13, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #749744
Excuse me? Any problem nursing while being COMPLETELY covered with a plane blanket? I don’t even see the issue.March 13, 2011 4:47 am at 4:47 am #749745
i am uncofortable when woman nurse in public, idk maybe its just me….!?!March 13, 2011 5:58 am at 5:58 am #749746
I don’t know if it’s ok to nurse in public or not, But,
It is much less tzius than most of the things you people rant about on this site.
To wit, it is less tznius than:
Skirts with a slit,
So I am not going to criticize it, but if you won’t wear a slit skirt (slit below knee), then you probably shouldn’t be nursing in public.March 13, 2011 6:33 am at 6:33 am #749747
“blankets can cover up everything – if hold baby in arm whole time, he needn’t know when baby is nursing or not, and he definitely doesn’t see a thing. “
You’re right that he didn’t see a thing, but when the baby’s head disappears under the blanket, it’s not hard to figure out what’s going on. This was not a newborn so the rest of the time she was sitting straight up on my lap without the blanket covering her.
“So I am not going to criticize it, but if you won’t wear a slit skirt (slit below knee), then you probably shouldn’t be nursing in public. “
I don’t wear slits, jean skirts, or anything else on your list, and I agree with you that I shouldn’t be nursing in public. But what is the other option on the plane? I couldn’t starve the child for 12 hours either, and as I said, there was no option for her other than nursing.March 13, 2011 6:59 am at 6:59 am #749748
Now you know what to do. Take along a Mechitza!March 13, 2011 7:37 am at 7:37 am #749749m in IsraelMember
I’m completely with Mother in Israel on this one. Although I try to avoid nursing in public, as it often makes people uncomfortable, and I believe it is spoken about in Chazal as being inappropriate (although not assur). I have absolutely no problem nursing on a plane (especially a long flight such as from E”Y). I am a very experienced nursing mother, and I still would have trouble nursing my baby in the tiny airplane bathrooms, in addition to all the previous points mentioned regarding smell, germs, and occupying the bathroom for an extended period of time. Additionally, most babies need to nurse during take off and landing, a time when you are not even allowed to be in the bathroom! (Unless you would prefer my baby screaming and thrashing rather then nursing quietly and privately in my lap!)
popa_bar_abba — I don’t understand your post at all. How are you comparing issues involving exposing oneself (such as the slit, bare calf issue), to nursing? Obviously we are talking about being completely covered. You only know I am nursing because you can deduce it, not because you see anything inappropriate. And I am sitting in my own seat — not parading in public! Personally I can nurse completely covered without even a blanket/ nursing cover up, but I use one anyone just to be absolutely sure I am not in any way exposed. I really do not understand the lack of tznius in this issue, as long as one goes about it in a tzniusdik way! (I do try to ask for a window seat so I am at most making one person uncomfortable!)
Sac — Many babies do not take bottles for various reasons. Additionally, a mother who is nursing exclusively or mainly cannot simply skip a few feeding without physical consequences — and I assume you would be just as uncomfortable with a woman expressing milk as with her nursing!
bpt — I’m surprised you find this unexpected, as to the best of my knowledge all the frum women I know who nurse do so on planes, and I travel in pretty “yeshivish/ chareidi” circles. I would have a problem with any picture of myself being randomly taken and posted on the internet, but I would not be any more upset because I had a blanket over my body (in a picture you may not even be able to tell I’m nursing, as you didn’t see me holding the baby before!) Many people on planes sit with blankets up to their chin!March 13, 2011 8:31 am at 8:31 am #749750
Thanks, m in Israel! I agree with everything you said.
“Additionally, a mother who is nursing exclusively or mainly cannot simply skip a few feeding without physical consequences — and I assume you would be just as uncomfortable with a woman expressing milk as with her nursing!”
I wasn’t going to bring this up, but since you did….
I once had to fly a few years ago without my nursing baby. I had pumped for him and left him bottles of breastmilk at home, but I was very uncomfortable during the flight and had no choice but to pump on the plane. BH I had a very small, very quiet electric pump and I did it right there in my seat under a blanket. The woman sitting next to me knew because she saw me pull out a bottle of milk when I was done, but otherwise it was entirely discreet and unnoticeable.
(I wasn’t trying to make any point by sharing that other than saying that you do what you have to do when you’re on the plane, whether it’s nursing or pumping.)March 13, 2011 9:17 am at 9:17 am #749751
i also always ask for window seat and keep myself covered. i was once holding my newborn in baby sling, and someone started shouting at me – turns out they thought i was nursing my baby. people cannot see when i am and when i’m not nursing; they’re offended cuz they think they know what the baby is doing – but they do not see a thing!
and quite honestly, for many babies, there is no other choice.March 13, 2011 9:26 am at 9:26 am #749752
and why in the world is having baby under a blanket, worse than wearing slits, dressing not tzniously, etc.?March 13, 2011 11:27 am at 11:27 am #749753
MODS please, direction has turned a bit to the south, you know what to do.March 13, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #749754candy613Member
i believe that it is not worth making a big deal about it. You just sit and dont get into a long and chatty type of conversation. You acknowledge he’s there, and answer the approprite questions if he asks, and then that’s it! Just do your own thing, and let him do his own thing. I would have thought that it may not be ok to do this, but there are teachers i know, and other people i respect, who would just sit and not make a scene out of it.
>O<613March 13, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #749755apushatayidParticipant
“apushatayid: Why do you find it more comfortable to sit next to gentile females than next to gentile males?”
They tend to be more civilised when compared to their male counterparts.
Of course, another frum man to discuss the parsha with is the ultimate seat mate, but doesn’t happen often.March 13, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #749756
Forgive me for thinking this out loud, but I think it’s your yetzer hora thinking it preferable to sit next to a female than male.March 13, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #749757
Pretty weird thing to tell someone. He does not have a Yetzer Hara now to sit near a woman in a couple of months, unless you are calling him a Rasha. Besides, I doubt he has a “Yetzer Hara” to sit near a woman in the first place.March 13, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #749758
HaLeiVi: You must read things in context, and follow the conversation, prior to commenting. Nothing to do with a couple of months, but rather his daily commute. As you can see from our initial conversation above, I was responding to his comment of (quote) “I have found it much easier (relaxing and enjoyable if such words could be used to describe a commute) to sit next to non jewish females than males of any religion.”
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