January 27, 2022 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #2055621HistorianParticipant
INN, Shvat 25, 5782 (27.01.22):
The Six-Day Major-general confirms (he knows): There was a Siyata diShmaya [divine providence]
Reservist General Shaike Gavish, who was the commander of the Sinai Front during the Six Day War, talks about the belief in G-d that helped the IDF win the landslide victory.
Channel 7, 25 Bishvat 5722 27.01.22.
The director of the Military Theory Organization, Rabbi Aviad Gadot in the reserve, sat down for an in-depth conversation with the reserve general, Yeshayahu (Shaike) Gavish, who was the commander of the Southern Command during the Six Day War.
During the interview, Rabbi Gadot read the historical battle page of Major-General Gavish, which the senior commander signed with the words “And may G-d be with you!” [Viyhi Hashem imachem] As a battle cry for the tens of thousands of his subordinates who stormed the Egyptian army in the Sinai Peninsula.
Gadot asked: “Do you feel that there really was a Siyata Dishmaya, help from heaven for that war?”.
Gavish replied: “Yes, both feeling and appreciating the two things together.
With Am Yisrael, it is a different people, different thoughts, different attitudes. Yes religious, non-religious; other: all the variety. Everyone goes to war. Everyone… makes a sacrifice…
I felt and felt even then that in this sentence I express what many people think, and some say and some do not say, but that’s what leads us, the belief and feeling that you are not alone, and that’s what led me to write “and G-d be with you,” certainly.January 28, 2022 8:15 am at 8:15 am #2055686akupermaParticipant
Having dumb and incompetent enemies is definitely a bracha min ha-Shamayim.January 28, 2022 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #2055721
“if the 6 day war was a miracle, then Johnson was a navi” – the Divrei yoel z”l.
I’m not a satmar chossid, but I’m not going to refrain from quoting the emes. The CIA chief at the time said that Israel would win in “probably 6 or 7 days”.
It’s nice that he believes in God. He should apply that supposed faith and campaign for a kosher army. “Hashem should be with you” – is Hashem “with* those who eat treif, are mechalel shabbos, and who think that being Jewish is being a zionist? Does Hashem support the defilement of har habayis that was the result of the war? Hashem is behind everything in the world, including famine, pandemics, holocausts – and the victory of the wicked.January 29, 2022 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2055856
Raiken shebahem milaiyim mitzvos keirimon. Who are you to judge who Hashem is with or not?January 29, 2022 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #2055860
>>>The CIA chief at the time said that Israel would win in “probably 6 or 7 days”.
Can you give a direct to where that was said . I know YWN does not allow links so give some basic ways I can find that prediction. I’ve tried to do so and all I could come up was predictions of Israeli victory between six and eight WEEKS with tens of thousands of Israeli dead (which actually matches the Israeli predictions)
Plus at that point in time the CIA was also predicating the US would quickly win in Vietnam as well.
So the CIA were no neviem and their assessment is of little value. Particularly when it makes so little sense. How was Israel with less than a third the amount of soldier, planes, tanks and other equipment supposed to win the war in less than a week?January 29, 2022 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2055876
Smerel, rabbi yaakov shapiro’s “the empty wagon” devoted an entire chapter to this issue – he has all the quotes there, including the two i mentioned, plus much more. Israel had an advantage in its advanced technology, weaponry, training and other factors. The surrounding arab armies were militarily inferior to Israel’s in almost every aspect.
Who am I to say who Hashem is with? Well, Hashem said so himself regarding an inmoral army “ולא יראה בך ערות דבר ושב מאחריך” – if there is an immoral matter in the ranks of a Jewish army, Hashem himself says He will turn away from us.January 29, 2022 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2055883
I agree that the Israeli government is and always was immoral. But who are we to judge who Hashem is with? Hashem was with Achav and the Yidden in his time even though they worshipped avoidah zarah. The Midrashim and Rishonim say that ikvisa dimishicha there will be an immoral government in Eretz Yisroel. This is bad, bit it is leading to yimois haMoshiach.January 29, 2022 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2055884ubiquitinParticipant
“Israel had an advantage in its advanced technology, weaponry, training and other factors”
Interesting. Never expected to hear you subscribe to “Kochi Veotzem yodi”
kidding, of course I did. Still funny to seeJanuary 29, 2022 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2055893
Motcha, while achav was an oved avoda zara, it doesn’t say that his army had people who were involved in ervas davar – that’s what the pasuk says will cause Hashem to turn away r”l.
The Israeli army, however, does and is proud of it. The army itself was designed to be an indoctrination tool and place of iniquity – in the same book, rabbi shapiro cites manu sources attesting to the activities of the average IDF soldier. Rav avigdor miller cites in “awake my glory” abortion statistics, that most women are members of the army at the time of their infanticide.
Therefore, any success they have is from the sitra achra, since Hashem says he turns away from such an army. The brisker rov, alternatively, said that the yidden who daven and are frum are protecting the rest…in effect, we are safe in eretz yisroel in spite of the army, bzchus the yirayim ve’shlaymim.
Pick a shitah; both are daas torah.January 29, 2022 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #2055892
Taking a bigger picture: the wonder of having millions of Jews living – and keeping mitzvos – in e’Y is something worth appreciating. So, it came through activites of non-religious Jews and various empires scheming for their own benefit. What is the extra “defilement” of Har Habayit? That we have a shul at the Wall instead of the garbage dump? The army is immoral because their kashrus is not up to your standard, while they are risking their lives? “come on”January 29, 2022 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #2055894
>>>Smerel, rabbi yaakov shapiro’s “the empty wagon” devoted an entire chapter to this issue – he has all the quotes there,
I’m not going through a one thousand page book to find the quote and it’s source. Which page is it on.
Plus having read some of “The Empty Wagon” on this topic all I can do is note the irony of the fact that the book pushes the Kochey V’Otzem Yodey attitude even worse than the secular Zionists do.January 29, 2022 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #2055898
The Israeli army has plenty of frum, erlicher Yodden in it.January 29, 2022 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #2055902
No, he’s saying that they are ovair arayos a lot.January 29, 2022 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #2055907
As far as I know, getting help from the sitra achara is a Christian idea, not a Jewish one. Where do we find such an idea in Chazal?January 29, 2022 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2055917
Christianity believes in a dualistic, independently powerful devil/satan. He can do things against what they call god.
We don’t have such a concept; evil was created by Hashem and does not function autonomously. Demons don’t have bechirah, and neither does the sitra achra. We still want to keep away from it, because it is against the revealed will of Hashem, kedushah, and l things that are good for us. This idea is explained in detail in the kisvei arizal, and the tanya in a few places. The ramchal mentions it in derech aitz chaim and in the hakdoma to kalach pischei chochma, and reb elchonon vasserman in his ikvesa demieshicha oage 263, quotes it as well. Chazal use the term “maysoh soton” in a few places, such as the vision that the soton made by har Sinai that Moshe was dead as part of the nisayon of the egel hazahav. Devarim 13:4 says that a navi sheker may produce a miracle; that miracle is a maysoh soton, a challenge that we must withstand, just like any other yatzer hora.
Ultimately everything is from Hashem, as ein ohd milvado – nothing truly exists besides Hashem, but the same way we keep away from physical fire, even though there’s nothing besides Hashem, we keep away from negative spiritual realities, be they aveiros, shedim, ruchos raos, or maysoh soton.
Where does the empty wagon advocate kochi veotzem yodi? I went through it many times, and I have not seen anything remotely resembling such an attitude.
Empty wagon quotes regarding the 6 day war are on pages 609-613. There’s a pretty clear index…you don’t need to search through the pages to find topics; they’re clearly labeled.January 29, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2055920
It’s true that the army has a percentage that are frum, with a small percent that can be termed charedi.
It’s also true that of the 20% of dati leumi jews who abandon Judaism, the majority do so in the army, according to the chief rabbi of the idf +he said this like 8 years ago).
We’re not talking about chumros in kashrus or even kashrus issues in general; I’m referring to the vast majority of the army having direct contact with members of the opposite gender, at times sharing living quarters. The majority of infanticide/abortions occur in the army. I was clear about that; referring to kashrus issues is a strawman argument, and i think you’re better than thatJanuary 29, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2055918
AAQ, the defilement is that jews are walking on it in a state of tumah, committing an issur kares in the holiest place in the worldJanuary 30, 2022 12:04 am at 12:04 am #2055924
What issur karais are they committing?January 30, 2022 12:44 am at 12:44 am #2055929
Bamidbar 5,2,vayishalchu – we’re all tamei, and there are many sefaikos as to where the makom hamikdash is. Rambam in bias hamikdash perek 3. Zionist rabbis have bended over backwards to allow this issur for nationalist purposes. Min hashomayim, nothing makes the arabs as angry as when jews ascend har habayis – this is hashgocha and Hashem’s way of reminding us to keep the halacha and stay off.January 30, 2022 12:45 am at 12:45 am #2055926
Avira, I see. I don’t know details on what is happening inside of IDF, but from people I met, those who were chilonim before, stayed that way, and those who were datiim stayed that way. With dati leumi, would them going to other paces instead of IDF lead to a similar loss? Probably, yes. I don’t see IDF doing some specifically eveil thing rather than just being representative of the overall society.January 30, 2022 6:53 am at 6:53 am #2055933
What do they do that’s particularly evil?
Indoctrination classes, intentionally mixing genders, constantly trying to draft girls…the army was built as a cultural center initially, to promote zionism – that’s not my theory, it’s the words of ben gurion and his apikorsim. He was asked how he would integrate sefardim and other groups into Israeli society, and his answer was the army. I’d again refer to the empty wagon for a comprehensive list of quotes and examples of this.January 30, 2022 10:25 am at 10:25 am #2055981
>>>Where does the empty wagon advocate kochi veotzem yodi?
It doesn’t use those words but does have the exact attitude the posuk
וְאָֽמַרְתָּ֖ בִּלְבָבֶ֑ךָ כֹּחִי֙ וְעֹ֣צֶם יָדִ֔י עָ֥שָׂה לִ֖י אֶת־הַחַ֥יִל
That is exactly the way The Empty Wagon describes the six day war. Keep Hashem out of the picture. The fact the Israeli were facing armies with more than three times the amount of soldier, tanks, airplanes, money and other equipment each .And in some cases more than five times the amount of Israeli resources ? No problem. Israeli ingenuity knows how to deal with that. Hashem helped? What? Where does Hashem come into the picture? It was all superior Israeli strength.
You can’t get more Kochey Votzem Yodey than that.January 30, 2022 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2056107
Smerel, i don’t believe you’re understanding his intention properly. Everything is min hashomayim, and he reminds us of this in many, many places. His point was the the gedolim said that the 6 day war was a war like the American revolution, civil war, gulf war, and countless others that were within derech hateva. His explanations, citations etc are meant to explain that the war was not a neis, not that it’s not min hashomayim – those are two very, very different ideas
When you go to work and bring home a paycheck, when you take Tylenol for a headache, you are both acknowledging that it’s Hashem behind the curtain, and that He’s running your life through derech hateva. When the Tylenol works or the boss gives you a check, it’s not a neis that’s outside Teva, it’s a neis that is “al nisecha shebechol yom emanu”, “miracles”that are with us always… But we don’t say halel on that, and we’re not even allowed to, as chazal say about someone who says halel everyday…
If someone says that America winning the iraq war was a neis, you’d say he’s wrong – it’s absolutely min hashomayim, but it’s not a neis, because America has an exponentially greater army than Iraq. So too here; Israel had a lot of advantages, so the war was not a miracle at all. The satmar rov said that the only neis that happened was that the soton was so successful in convincing people that a neis had happened.January 30, 2022 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #2056109
Rabbi shapiro explains that it’s similar to the laitzonei hador who claimed that sorah had conceived from avimelech. Why are they called laitzonei hador? Because how can a person think that Hashem wouldn’t do nissim for Avrohom, a tzadik, but would for avimelech, the rasha? He’s belittling Avrohom in saying so.
Ever wonder why the same people who consider themselves “rationalist”, eschew kabalah, doubt things like golems, mock chasidishe stories as folk tales, and seek to explain Torah in the most non-miraculous way possible.. suddenly become miracle loving fundamentalists? Tell a zionist you have doubts about krias yam suf, and you’ll have a listening, compassionate ear… Tell them you have doubts about if the wars were miracles, and you’re an enemy of the nation, a horrible descendent of the miraglim, etcJanuary 30, 2022 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2056111MarxistParticipant
Using “The Empty Wagon” as a reliable source of history is a mistake. While it does have many good references, the author’s blatant bias is apparent on every page and the neutral balancing of sources is not displayed.January 30, 2022 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2056138
Marx; he is anti zionist, but I’ve yet to see him skew anything factually – do you have any examples of the book being factually incorrect or misleading?
Having a strong opinion doesn’t mean you’re wrong or that your bias will influence your judgement; sometimes one side is….right, and the other is wrong. Zionism is wrong and has been in the business of falsifying history for over 100 years. They reframe hewish history, such as tanach, bar kochva, in their image. They tell the world that judaism is a nationality and that they are the lone protectors of that made up nationhood. They erase Hashem except when it suits their means. Tanach only has relevance when it can be used as proof of their rights to land.
They murdered their own, sold out their breathren to die in the Holocaust, indulged in anti semitism, kidnapped and shmaded jews…got 1 million sefardim expelled from their homes…their crimes are without end.
They’re wrong. Period.January 30, 2022 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #2056139
>>>His point was the the gedolim said that the 6 day war was a war like the American revolution, civil war, gulf war, and countless others that were within derech hateva.
That is exactly what the militantly atheistic Zionists say too. If the American revolution, civil war, gulf war and other wars were also a situation of very two unequal sides facing with such a quick victory for the weaker side with so few causalities for them I would also see and say that the Yad Hashem was on their side.
>>>So too here; Israel had a lot of advantages, so the war was not a miracle at all.
Can you name the Israeli advantages other than claimed ingenuity and better planning?
>>>But we don’t say halel on that, and we’re not even allowed to, as chazal say about someone who says halel everyday…
I don’t say Hallel for the Six day war either but based on that logic you can stop saying “Rabim B’Yad Me’atim and many other parts of the Chanuka story from Bemay MAtisyahu. I’m sure the Misyavnim back then also said the Chasmoniam were stronger, smarter etc and won through natural means.
>>>Why are they called laitzonei hador?
Because they refused to acknowledge Yad Hasem and said after all the years Sorah did not become pregnant from Avorhom it must be that she can’t and became pregnant from Avimelech.
>>>Ever wonder why the same people who consider themselves “rationalist”, eschew kabalah etc.
Actually the oppisite. Rabbi Berel Wein has the observation that throughout history three groups have frequently shared and advocated the same position with regard to various Jewish community issues .those groups are (1)The very, very far right frum groups (2)the militantly atheistic anti-religious Jewish groups and (3) the non-Jewish anti-Semites . This approach to the the Six Day War (and the general approach to the State of Israel today) is just a typical example following history.January 30, 2022 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #2056145
Avira, re:IDF, I think you are right in terms of ideology there. I do not ascribe it though to specifically attack on religion, but to the real goal of building a cohesive nation the best way they knew. We all have tendency of looking at the negatives – attitudes towards religion, towards Sephardim, but disregarding the enormous challenge of putting together a country consisting of survivors and immigrants from different countries and surrounded by enemies. It is silly not to appreciate their hishtadlut, and Yad Hashem involved into the whole enterprise.
As to Satmarer and your smarting at 6 day war, I would take them serious if you can point out to this sentiment expressed before the start of hostilities. editedJanuary 30, 2022 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2056146
Avira > Tell them you have doubts about if the wars were miracles,
I can answer that, I think: Hashem introduces himself as One who took us out of mitzrayim – because this is what Jews just witnessed. So, someone who was sitting in a tank in 6 day war is naturally talking about that. You would too if you were there.January 30, 2022 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2056202
Smerel, there’s a lot to unpack here. Firstly, even if we were to say that the sides were drastically uneven (which they weren’t, more on that soon), the pri megadim writes that we wouldn’t have established chanukah because of the victory of the chashmonaim, because often the underdog (pardon the expression) wins – winning a war against all odds is NOT a neis, according to the pri megadim.
Again, you’re conflating yad Hashem vs nisim. Not everything that’s min hashomayim is a neis. Misyavnim, secularists, and kochi veotzem yodi people say that the CAUSE of success is strength and material factors. They deny that it is from Hashem.
I am not saying that Israel’s wars, or any wars, or anything is not from Hashem. The snowflake that hit my nose this morning was from Hashem. Nothing exists or happens without Hashem. A neis is a miracle, a suspension of natural law. It is done for tzadikim or xan be, rarely, a challenge from the yatzer hora, are we going to follow…say, the egel hazahav, or here, are we going to lavish praises on the zionist enemies of Torah and say that Hashem is “with” them and their blasphemous campaigns.
However, we don’t need the pri megadim here. By all counts, Israel had far better training, better pilots, better equipment, better weapons, and better generals. The empty wagon in that chapter brings many neutral sources that clearly say this. The arab armies were plagued by nepotism, lack of training and preparedness, aging weaponry and many other factors. Also, Israel had better motivation; arabs were secure in their land, whereas the Israelis would face extermination if they failed. Numbers alone are not the deciding factor.
Rav yisroel chaim Kaplan’s grandson, rav binyomin kaplan, tells over (you can him say it on rabbi shapiro’s podcast by googling “R. Yaakov Kamenetsky on the Myth of the Miracle of the 6-Day War rabbi shapiro podcast”) that rav yaakov kaminetzky said “vos heist nisim?” How were there nisim?
Comparing land mass the way zionists do in theit education information is very misleading. Wars aren’t won by colliding land masses together or merely by troops running at each other. Even then, the air force is what really makes a difference, and Israel had the upper hand in that department by a wide margin.
Again, neis doesn’t equal min hashomayim. Everything is min hashomayim, most things – 99.9% of things, are not nissim.January 30, 2022 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #2056203
I don’t understand what r. berel weins comments have to do with anything (not that i agree with them, for a host of reasons)
Only here, by Israel’s wars, do otherwise “rationalist” jews start going on and on about miracles. They also, erroneously, believe that these miracles are “proof” that they are right.
We don’t decide who is right by miracles, like the tanor achnai where rebbe eliezer’s miracles were dismissed, as torah laav beshomayim hi.
When a group bases theit beliefs largely on miracles, such as zionists, messianic lubavitchers, shabsai tzvi and other deviances, it is a clear message to all shomrei torah to keep far away.January 30, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2056218☕️coffee addictParticipant
“When a group bases theit beliefs largely on miracles, such as zionists,”
R Aharon Feldman said he was of the opinion to say hallel for Yom yerushalyim until he saw the Zionists say כחיִ ועצם ידיJanuary 31, 2022 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2056495LostsparkParticipant
AvirahDeArah, everything you had said on this topic is emes. Very well put.February 1, 2022 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2056514amomParticipant
I was in Israel and I watched the girls and boys together.
You wouldn’t have known they were Jewish.
So sad.February 1, 2022 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2056515amomParticipant
I am talking about the ChayalimFebruary 1, 2022 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2056518
“I don’t understand what r. berel weins comments have to do with anything (not that i agree with them, for a host of reasons)”
Cute that you also know history better than Berel Wein.February 1, 2022 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2056549
Syag, he has an interpretation of history; we’re not speaking about straight facts. Unless someone is a gadol batorah, the argument from authority is weak and not convincing. I’m entitled to have a different opinion than him. From your posts i don’t think you agree with everything the covid experts say, even though they’re scientists and know a lot more about medicine than you do, and medicine is much more of a hard science than history.
For the record, being a popular history book writer isn’t even much of an authoritative position.
Gershom scholem knows more about history than i do, but his ideas are anti torah and he is simply wrong about a lot of things.February 1, 2022 8:03 am at 8:03 am #2056550
Also, to be honest, i do think i know more about rabbinic history than he does, having had close ties with an insular world that he isn’t part of and which doesn’t spend a lot of time documenting its history. I trust the historical accounts of my rebbeim from beis brisk and others over his research.February 1, 2022 8:06 am at 8:06 am #2056552ujmParticipant
That was R Wein’s own commentary on history; not simply his reporting history. Avira’s correct question was how smerel’ citation of R Wein’s commentary is relevant to this discussion.
editedFebruary 1, 2022 8:35 am at 8:35 am #2056580
“From your posts i don’t think you agree with everything the covid experts say, even though they’re scientists and know a lot more about medicine than you do, ”
no, my own doctors I followed. because they know more than me and I have verified their integrity. Even if I disagreed.
“Also, to be honest, i do think i know more about rabbinic history than he does, having had close ties with an insular world that he isn’t part of and which doesn’t spend a lot of time documenting its history. ”
I guess it doesn’t take much to zero out your credibility. Knowledge I respect highly, arrogance I can’t. No worries tho, you’ve got Jo backing you.February 1, 2022 8:35 am at 8:35 am #2056581
ujm – it has been quite amusing to watch you take a back seat to Avirah’s posts over these months (is it perhaps years yet?) as he speaks for you but at greater length and detail. I have been wondering what you have been filling your extra time with, part time kollel perhaps?February 1, 2022 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #2056686
You don’t have to agree with R Berel Wein, but from everything I read and heard from him, he generally knows what he is talking about. People from Chicago probably have more to say. And his own insight are always interesting, again whether you agree with him or not. Not sure why you are comparing a Rav who specializes in history with some non-religious writers. I think people like him who are able to approach an area of general knowledge with a kosher perspective is a precious resource we need to use. Again, you don’t have to agree with everything, but argue accordingly.February 1, 2022 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2056710
I wasn’t equating scholem with r. Wein; i was saying that merely being a historian doesn’t mean I’ll be machniah myself, whether they’re religious, a rabbi, or anyone else.February 1, 2022 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #2056716
R Wein has never been “merely” a historian. Although you obviously have much more prestigious credentials given your “close ties with the insular world he isn’t part of”.February 1, 2022 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2056720
For the record, Avirah edited his last posts to say he was relying on information from his rabbeim instead of just his own knowledge, which it did NOT say originally.February 1, 2022 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2056719MarxistParticipant
“I trust the historical accounts of my rebbeim from beis brisk and others over his research.”
Rule #1 of history: Myths and legends grow over time and through generations. Gosh, in this thread alone you gave us an example: the claim that Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War was unexpected and close to miraculous which you argue (using research or quoting others’ research) is a myth.February 1, 2022 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2056728DaMosheParticipant
AviraDeArah, you can say whatever you want about R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky zt”l, but it’s not true.
A student at the time wrote an article about what R’ Yaakov really said. It was also said by R’ Reisman in one of his shiurim.
In Torah v’Daas they brought a television into the yeshiva to see the news of the war. When they announced that the Har haBayis had been captured, R’ Yaakov ran into the beis medrash and made a shehecheyanu. He then began reciting Hallel, with tears streaming down his cheeks.February 1, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2056756
That student is not as reliable as rav yisroel chaim Kaplan, Mashgiach of beis medrash elyon.
What exactly did rabbi reisman report? I spent over a decade in torah vodaas and didn’t hear a word about him saying halel, or that nisim happened, or anything else. As it happens to be, i wasn’t the most anti zionist person there. Rav belsky spoke often against zionism and was extremely close to rav yaakov.February 1, 2022 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2056762
Also re, rav yaakov; i was close with an elderly oved Hashem who worked in the office for many decades, and was active in managerial issues in the yeshiva. He used to tell me stories about his early years, and he said he was there when rav shraga feivel gave a shiur following the war of independence, with him saying that he doesn’t know for sure, but that it might be the beginning of bias Hamoshiach. He said he would wait to see what the gedolei hador would say. The next say rav yaakov said clearly that it has not related to the geulah, and rav shraga feivel accepted this psak.
Marx, if you ever spent time in a brisker Yeshiva, you’d see the unusual emphasis placed on the accurate retelling of stories. One of my roshei Yeshiva said that by rav berel, the talmidim would discuss it if one time he used a different….word, yes, a different word in his explanation. They take history very seriously.
I never said that the 6 day war myth developed in the way you’re describing. Actually,i haven’t addressed that question directly, so I’ll do so now.
The state of Israel purposefully grew the myth of both the danger they were in as well as the legend of their unlikely victory. That’s artificial. I’m referring to groups of people who take their own history as seriously as they do teshuvos reb akiva eiger.
Zionist circles have a mythology, including a made up story that West point academy doesn’t teach about the 6 day war, because it’s a miracle. That’s not rooted in a misunderstanding that developed; it’s just plain, demonstrable sheker. It’s on their curriculum and you can find it on Google.
editedFebruary 1, 2022 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2056763
Syag, it’s not just my rebbeim; i take from other sources too, but my “big picture”is from them
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