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I just like to get an understanding. To what point do we have to believe what we see and hear? It was to my quite clear that Moron Sar Hatorah and Moron Rosh HaYeshivah shlitah in addition other Rabbeim say that one should take the vaccin as soon as it is available. So many people in my direct neighborhood are extremely skeptical and one even posed that they forced the statement of Moron Sar Hatorah. How can we ever believe anything? What is your view on this issue? Do we take the shots or not?
The virus is deadly, that’s a וודאי (sure thing), the side effects of the vaccine are a ספק, so a וודאי takes precedence over a ספק (doubt).
See also https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1931577/thoughts-about-the-new-covid-vaccine.html
where Rav Yair Hoffman, Shlita says that ‘there is no heter to avoid taking the vaccine’Participant
“The virus is deadly, that’s a וודאי”-you mean covid is like a 100% be’vadaus death sentence?? You do realize, that even for the most at risk patients, the survival rate is >95%…
That being said, I do understand a high risk person shouldt think twice about taking the vaccine, as the benefit surely outweighs the risk at this point. What I don’t understand, and maybe someone could explain it to me, is why should young adults and children take the vaccine? At first I thought maybe because taking the vaccine would make you unable to transmit the virus, but after a google search, I found that is not the case. A total of 95 people up to the age of 14 have died from covid in the US. An additional 458 in the 15-24 age group. Does the benefit outweigh the potential risk in these age groups?Many people are skeptical of the vaccine. This is a matter upon which reasonable people will disagree. Anyone claiming absolute knowledge of the matter is lying or a fool. The test of the vaccine showed that over 99% of those who received the placebo did not get sick, but of the tiny number who did get sick, the vaccine was much more effective (note that the definition of “getting Covid19” was changed for the test – unlike the figure normally used, only those who tested positive with symptoms were considered to have become ill). While allergic reactions are rare, the other sorts of side effects appear much worse than the flu shots. No one has tested whether the vaccine will stop various new strains that have been developing.
There will always be those idiots who are in denial of prevailing medical and public health findings regarding the efficacy of drugs and therapies. Sadly, their own reckless behavior has really negative consequences for others but there is little the government can do in a democracy to force compliance.
>> why should young adults and children take the vaccine
1st, we need to make a decisions when we need to make them. Right now, outside of medical workers, nobody is vaccinating young adults. In several months, we will have more information about vaccines and effect on transmission.
2nd, there is statistical evidence of young people transmission, with towns having universities having 50% more deaths among elderly. One sad reason is that young medical students work in nursing homes and hospitals. When thinking about these things, note that people are not very good at estimating low-risk events. Is crossing the street far from zebra, or checking an email while driving on an empty highway, significantly more risky than otherwise? I feel that no. But statistics tell us that this leads to lots of extra deaths.
3rd I would extrapolate from college students to high-schoolers who do not differ significantly in size, maturity, and social behavior – and they are present everywhere. If colleges are responsible for 50%, then high-schoolers for at least as much.
4th as far as moral dillemas go – will we be vaccinating children, while 3rd world will have almost no vaccines? what can help is that 3rd world will have hard time using mRNA vaccine, and will rely on more traditional ones
Akuperma-“Anyone claiming absolute knowledge of the matter is lying or a fool”
What I’m worried about is the exact opposite. Us NOT being able to claim absolute knowledge of the matter(vaccine). Yes, the chance of dangerous long term side effects is super low, which is why I agree 100% that anyone at-risk should absolutely get the vaccine asap.
AAQ -you seem to be sure taking the vaccine will stop transmission-but is that so? If yes, then I fully understand why the young should vaccinate, but a Google search tells me otherwise…A few points:
⬤ Every single major medical agency supports this vaccine.
⬤ You really think that the most advanced medical experts at FDA, EU, UK NHIS and every Western health agency are all conspiring to damage the health of their own peoples, their relatives and friends? Does it make sense that they will damage their own professional reputations?
⬤ Pfizer’s stock is barely affected by the vaccine. Are they motivated to lie, cause widespread infertility etc and kill every other portfolio they’re advancing?I’m not “totally” against vaccinations or the govt. They both contain a lot of good. I also believe that Hashem guides everything in our lives & in Creation.
With that being said, I do want to give some explanations for some of the skepticisms of vaccines &/or govt:
I (& a lot of my family members) served in the U.S. military & worked with the VA veterans hospital. I know & seen a lot of horror stories of experimental vaccinations. The Gulf War was probably the worst era of vaccines gone wrong, but I’ve seen it happen with vaccines taken even many years after that war. My point here is that I’ve seen firsthand what can happen with vaccinations gone wrong.
A friend worked for the local CDC. She discovered an outbreak was occurring in our state (not Covid-related though). Her superiors repeatedly told her to shut her mouth. But she eventually went to the media & warned everyone. She ended up getting “quietly” demoted repeatedly after that. This year, this same CDC got caught by a news investigator for obvious lies in their Covid statistics. My point here is that some of us are well aware not to trust govt data.
I held a part-time clerical job in clinical research (for a disease we would all be familiar with) at a local college. I saw them repeatedly get caught forging signatures & making up whatever they had to make up in order to keep the funding flowing in. They only got “slaps on the wrist” & told not to do it again. My point here is that I saw firsthand how easily it was to lie in clinical research to move things along.
I’m a Baal Tshuva, so I’m not sure of the right Hebrew terminology to use here. But I’m very familiar with false statements & forged signatures/stamps on letters in the Haredi world. It actually became quite common where I lived in a well-known, religious community (to write a false or misleading Psak & photoshop signatures & official seals onto it). My point here is that unless I hear something straight from a Posek or a trusted Rabbi that heard it from the Posek, I question it.
I’m not against anyone taking the vaccination if their Rav or Doctor tells them to take it. Because I believe Hashem will always find a way to reward & protect a Jew that acts properly.
However, it’s foolish if a person thinks the Govt, Big Pharm, or the media ever gives out the accurate truth & cares more about the citizens than their pockets. The good thing is that Hashem knows the truth & will be glad to help anyone that davens for Hashem’s help.
torahvaluesoverparty: you seem to be sure taking the vaccine will stop transmission, but a Google search tells me otherwise…
I am absolutely not sure of anything. We should be able to see effect on transmission in several months by looking, for example, at families of frontline workers, and see if their rates of infection decreased. Note that phase 3 trials had < 100K participants, we now have 2 mln vaccinated in US. Effect starts 10 days after first dose. We will see all kind of numbers in 1-2 months.
YSF – thank you for your service and thank you for your reasonable rational response.
About a year ago the biggest thread on CW was a couple of members arguing that vaccines are too dangerous and people shouldn’t take them. They had literally nothing to back their arguments up with. So I am not surprised that the same people are still alive and well during the current pandemic and also not surprised that their enablers are still around. People saying things like “Well, there are two sides to the issue…” or “I understand the concern even if personally….” are in my experience just vaccine deniers trying to look more legitimate.
YSF156, the main sources of info are Phase 3 trials for Pfizer and Moderna. They seem to be run by strict protocols and involve a lot of research personnel. Interestingly, both trials have very similar profiles of results. Are you aware of any concerns related to such trials? Maybe you want to review the results and protocols and see what could be a problem there.
I suggest also look at AstroZenica trials – they seemed to present slightly biased results: one sub-group had 50% first dose due to false double-measuring, and they did not fully explain it first and tried to combine results of two sub-groups – and seem to be delayed by months. I did not look into details, but this is evidence that someone is watching for bad results.
Aaq-sounds like a plan.
YSF156-thank you very much for your input. What you say goes hand in hand with what we’ve seen regarding the govt, big pharma’s handling of the life saving hydroxychloroquine.
Zvei dinim-my concern doesn’t even necessarily rely upon the govt being corrupt. Even if they were tzaddikim, there are doctors who aren’t so comfortable about this new type of vaccine.Always_Ask_Questions, you probably have a good point, although that’s not really an area of expertise for me. So I probably wouldn’t have a clue what I was looking at. I’m sure their protocols & research are top-notch.
But I wasn’t debating against the vaccine. I was just trying to show why someone would be skeptical of the govt, vaccine & Big Pharm’s research: there are many people that don’t trust the govt or big corporations after having worked for the govt or big corporations. They saw the coverups that go on behind the scenes. Now, when that same distrusted organization tells them to put something in their body, well, it’s not such an easy thing.torahvaluesoverparty, I found it interesting the Hydroxychloroquine plant in Taiwan exploded the same time Twitter pushed Dr. Zelenko off it’s platform.
YSF156, you are making a good point that we_all are pretty much lost in the current sea of data.
You would think we have access to so much info, more than any time in the world, but it is usually impossible to figure things out, as sources are unreliable and the more data you have, the more it can be misrepresented. Nobody seems to know a good answer.
In math, if you make one error, you can prove anything. I.e if 0 = 1, then 0+2 = 1 + 2, that is 2=3, etc.
There is a Jewish method “if someone is telling non-truth in one aspect, then we do not believe anything he is saying”. Applying that would eliminate most public sources we have, not sure if this can work.
Keep an eye on the novavax vaccine, it’s entering stage 3 trials, and is the traditional lab-grown virus type of vaccine, rather than the new mRna type, which some are afraid of…
The Bais Halevy says in his Sefer HaBitachon that many Rofim don’t know what they’re doing, and may often make matters worse. So who are you to trust?
The way I always approached this matter is: I have full Bitachon in the Rebono Shel Olam that the Dr. that I see is a Sheliach from Him, and that what the Dr. says is complete Hashgacha. Who really knows the workings of man? Therefore I acknowledge and accept that my daas is nothing, and that the Rebono Shel Olam will send the appropriate sheliach for my health concerns. I therefore follow what my Dr. says, being boteach that this is what Hashem has decreed for me and it’s for my benefit. This way, I never have to question what my Dr says and as a result I have a lot more menuchas hanefesh that I’m in the right Hands. This method also extends to public knowledge of medicine and vaccines in general. We go basar rov, and are ultimately boteach in Hashem that He is the Rofeh Umirapeh.About what the Bais Halevy says, the reason for this is because people are too boteach in their own daas, either that the Dr is right or wrong. So Hashem sometimes sends them a little message that they’re relying on the wrong things, and will ultimately realize that Ein Od Milvado.
Darwin will be proven right. Those of us who get vaccinated will live long healthy lives; those who don’t will eventually get infected with the coronavirus and will either die themselves or pass it on to their unvaccinated friends and relatives.
disclaimer: I find it hard to approve a post with such horrific wishes to others
We still don’t know whether one vaccinated can transmit the virus.
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