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It is time for the United States to pay reparations to the descendents of slave owners.
Why don’t you donate to a black cause rather than make people who had no one to do with it pay. Maybe Jews should get it for getting turned away before the Holocaust.
I’m still waiting for reparations from Spain for our expulsion in 1492. We probably have none coming from Mitzrayim because we emptied the country of riches when we left.
I thinkk we should donate 10% of the proceedings we got from Mitzraim. And Bavel. And Rome. And Spain. Germany. Russia, Syria, Iraq, Yemen. As this is a former British colony, can we get at least reparations for York? Maybe New York counts as one.
Why should Unites States do it? Did Unites States own a slave?
He’s talking about the descendants of slave owners who lost their slaves without compensation. The Slaves should of been bought out, not just freed. This is why the war shouldn’t have happened.
UJM no it wasn’t the US government who emancipated them. Do you read? And the money comes from the Treasury — public funds — from you and I. If you want to help a black person, donate to one of their causes.
UJM, did they confiscate them? They just rendered it illegal.
Who would want to publicize that their ancestor’s owned slaves. Even if they could do they have proof as most records were probably destroyed during the war or in the over 160 years since the end of the civil war. It’s not like the WWII that ended just 77 years ago and there are still people that lived through it
Most people are children of emigrants who came after the civil war and even the ones who lived in the south very few were rich enough to afford slaves and probaly died out.What about compensation for all the distruction when Sherman went through the south
The government can and does make the sale of given products illegal; certain firearms, drugs, bombs, etc..zachin vos zennen a sach besser vi yenom…
There’s a machlokes if goyim can have a kinyan in other goyim as avadim; the government would have a “kim li” on those shitos, to retain their status as muchzak. You can’t be motzi mamon from them to the descendants of slave owners. Also, the slave owners didn’t expect reasonably to be reimbursed, so they were mochel even on the tzad that they’re entitled to it.
As was pointed out, melech poretz geder applies here – the government can take what it wants, when it wants, and doesn’t even have to reimburse you (according to manu shitos)
It could also be argued that the slaves lost all resale value once slavery was ended, since they couldn’t be sold anymore. The government has no chiyuv to allow the sale of a given item. The government then, was only mafsid them the value of the work they would have performed for the master, which is a grama….lechora.
Abba,
Not sure where you are but I’m in Maryland and most people wouldn’t be embarrassed about their ancestors owning slaves as it wasn’t them and it was a different time. It’s like all the people here that are proud of their ancestors that fought for the Confederacy. I’m not sure why you think records are gone. The historical society often posts bills of sale for slaves. There’s also no reason most got destroyed. 160 years is not that long. I have a Shas that started being printed in 1865. So if that’s around and in pretty good shape from the year the Civil War ended there’s no reason other documents aren’t.I live in NYC which is above the Mason Dixon Line while you live below the Mason Dixon line. Most Jews and I think most Americans came to the US after the civil war, Most slave owners were rich and most of them lost all their wealth by the end of the war and moved. If they were bto claim thrir ancestor were slave owners it would be difficult to prove, And they would open themselves up to lawsuits from the heirs of slaves. With art work that was stolen by the Nazis where the art work is entact and their are records of ownership in most cases the heirs don’t win so why do you think slave owner’s heirs will get anything when blacks haven’t got anything and they have a movement to get it for years.
Turns out a simple google search reveals that slaveowners received compensation for their loss of property after all..around 300 for each (which was a lot back then, obviously)
The level of stupidity and immorality on this thread is remarkable. Let me try to explain why.
Slavery is an abomination, whether it is ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, or 18th Century England and its American colonies. Reparations are not payable to the owners because their “ownership” of other human beings is immoral, whether or not recognized by government. Any discussion or reasoning that does not recognize this fundamental principle about slavery is, at best, meaningless, and, at worst, well, … words fail me.
I think YWN would be well-advised to take down this thread, as the comments show no regard for Torah or any other moral system, nor any knowledge of history by the commenters.
I just can’t believe people wasted brain cells responding. I always have this dream that people will let the stupid threads die empty
You noticed disregard of Torah?
Before we litigate what happened a century and a half ago, why don’t we start with more recent history? How about when the government decreed that tenants could squat on a citizens property without paying rent, and the owner couldn’t evict them?
I guess when Avrohom owned (literally, owned) Eliezer, it was stupid, immoral, and disgusting. No?
Huju – truly immoral; very stupid to quote halacha sources regarding a question of monetary law. How sad that issues of morality are…decided by… Hashem… disgusting, truly so.
Yes this was a troll thread, but it was also an interesting question. The point of the trolling is to trigger copy/paste goyishe responses like yours.
” The point of the trolling is to trigger copy/paste goyishe responses like yours.”
No, the point of trolling is to irritate and get under the skin of people and in Josephs case, as well as your at times, it is to pretend you are doing kiruv by insulting and irritating people who have been educated differently (and sometimes poorly and/or wrongly) but there is a lack of the skills that is present in those who are actually capable and qualified for kiruv. The skills of repect and genuine care for the Jew himself and his growth. This style more closely resembles slamming someone over the head with information you know they will find unsettling and then throwing them onto the subway tracks and telling them it’s too bad they weren’t zoche to grow up in your shadow.
not only is it not effective, it’s grossly ineffective and pushes more people away than it helps.
” The point of the trolling is to trigger copy/paste goyishe responses like yours.”
but if you find this explanation to be more comfortable for you, please, do tell where in this heilige reason there is an ounce of Torah.
To Avira: I have no idea what your comment about my comment means. I am confident it is not because I am stupid.
Wow, @Syag Lchochma, you’re sharp and a good writer.
Huju,
According to those that lived then you’re quite mistaken. In New York there was a Rabbi Raphall (who talked himself up to be bigger than he was) while supporting the Union said according to Judaism Slavery was OK. Baltimore had a Rabbi Illowy that supported the status quo on Slavery and backed the Confederacy. He was the biggest Talmud Chochem in America and we hold like some of his psaks today. The first Ruv in America was also in Baltimore. He didn’t say anything pro or against Slavery but I’d imagine if it was as immoral as you say he would of spoken up. 2 other middle of the road Rabbis spoke in general about peace even if it meant slavery continuing. There was one Rabbi in Baltimore that spoke out strongly against Slavery. That was the ultraliberal, ultraleftist Reform Rabbi. It seems from the Rabbis of that era your inline with the Reform Rabbi. You might want to reconsideredited
UJM: I’m a first generation American-born person. My parents were Holocaust survivors from Eastern Europe who came to the US in the late 1950’s. All of their ancestors lived in Europe. None of them ever owned an African slave. I never have either. Why should I pay reparations?
As for the Torah view on slavery, back then and now, ancient version, Roman version or American, that is an entire different discussion which might or might not be a good idea to have.
If yes, let it at least be its own thread.
Halevi, it’s been discussed here before. It’s the highest madrega rhat an aino yehudi can hope for, as they keep mitzvos. It’s also a klalah representing ratzon Hashem for certain people who are uncontrollable and violent otherwise.
What if my ancestors were the unlawfully seized property? Can I sue for the right to reside at the houses of the former owners?
ujm, picking cotton!? First I’ll buy the cotton-picking machine that was invented more than 100 years ago by the yankees. Second, I’ll request you share your last pillow with me al pi halocha.
Contrary to popular belief, the ‘Emancipation Proclamation’ only affected slave owners in the Confederacy. Slavery continued to be practiced in Delaware and Maryland for more than six months after ‘Juneteenth’. The reason for that was because it actually was legally impossible to free people already enslaved without amending the Constitution, because it infringed on the ‘right to property’ of their (at the time) legal owners. In other words, ‘ujm’ is actually correct (legally, not historically). After the Civil War ended, the states passed bills paying compensation to the slave-owners, and Congress amended the Constitution, ending slavery in the United States. So, this issue was real, but it was dealt with already. The ‘Emancipation Proclamation’ was done by invoking the President’s wartime powers as Commander in Chief, which do include the ability to confiscate enemy property to further the war effort. (This involved treating the Confederate States as an ‘enemy’ entity, which was also legally tricky.) The connection to the war effort was to encourage the freed slaves to take up arms against their former owners and undermine the Confederacy. (Something that did happen to some extent.) BTW, all this belies the Liberal revisionist history that sees slavery as the main reason for the Civil War, when it was actually primarily about State versus Federal power (which was the hottest political issue for the first 80 years of the United States, and still reverberates until today.)
The funny thing about ‘reparations’ talk, is that many BLACKS are descendants of slave owners… (Including Kamala Harris…) Whereas most Whites in America (including Jews) can trace their ancestry to the great waves of immigration from Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century (after slavery was over)…
“First I’ll buy the cotton-picking machine that was invented more than 100 years ago by the yankees.“
מה שקנה עבד קנה רבו so your money isnt yours and your master would probably rather have your $100 and have you pick cotton
“Second, I’ll request you share your last pillow with me al pi halocha.“
That’s only if he was your master, which I don’t think your ancestors were slaves of Joe’s
YYA > many BLACKS are descendants of slave owners
Well, this is not that poshut. In many cases, the slave owners forcibly inserted themselves into the ancestry and the descendants did not inherit much.
> after slavery was over
Indeed, most Americans, and most Jews have nothing to do with slave owning. Furthermore, for 2000 years Jews were essentially the token discriminated group in European culture. Muslims were also enemies but they generally far away. So, we should be getting reparations not only from Germany but also from EU as a whole, Great Britain and Russia. Probably everyone in Europe except Poland, Baltics, and Vikings.
Same irony in America – Jews were first not accepted to Ivies because they were Jews, now we are not accepted as “whites”.
AAQ – Well, for purposes of the opening question of this thread, it would be advantageous to claim descent from a slave owner. I think we can agree that f there was anything to gain financially or legally by claiming such descent, anyone who could would come running, regardless of skin color, or under what circumstances his great-great-grandparents met. My main point actually was that the whole ‘reparations’ discussion (the regular one, of ‘blacks’ claiming reparations from ‘whites’) is inherently flawed, and just a cover story for racism. If descendants inherit guilt from 160 years back, why should that guilt follow racial lines rather than genealogical lines? It is documented that Kamala Harris is a descendant of one of the most notorious slave traders (not just an owner) of 18th century Jamaica, but that didn’t stop her from playing the ‘white guilt’ card against Donald Trump, who has no known slave owners in his ancestry.
Yaakov Yosef A,
“Slavery continued to be practiced in Delaware and Maryland for more than six months after ‘Juneteenth’
This is incorrect. While it’s true Lincoln rigged the elections in Maryland so only Union candidates could win & rigged the people’s vote in Maryland to change from a “Slave” state to a “Free” state regardless how it happened slavery officially ended in Maryland on Nov. 1, 1864.kuvult – Excuse me, it was Delaware and Kentucky, not Maryland. Lincoln actually dismissed the elected government of Maryland at the beginning of the Civil War to prevent them from going Confederate and cutting off Washington DC from the rest of the Union, which was another legally questionable move (that worked).
Well, there is such thing as national unity and, therefore, obligations. We have this discussion in Gemora about Egyptians suing Jews in greek courts for stuff we took out and Jews countersuing for slavery. So, the subject itself is legit. Did white Americans compensated former slaves sufficiently? If not accounting for deaths and sufferings, then probably the appropriate measure would be – were they given sufficient property comparable to current West Africans, such as Liberia (that was founded by freed American slaves).
AAQ – Theoretically there may be such a thing. Practically there are many complications:
1. Who is eligible? Since the whole point of ‘reparations’ is to play with ‘white guilt’, what about whites who have black ancestors? (There are many. Some of the enslaved ‘blacks’ were 3/4 or more white, including famously Thomas Jefferson’s ‘pilegesh’ who was the mother of six white skinned children.) Do they fit the ‘narrative’?
2. What about people descended from both slaves and slave owners? (e.g. Kamala Harris…)
3. What about American Blacks whose ancestors were enslaved elsewhere (Caribbean immigrants = most of Crown Heights, Bed Sty, and adjacent neighborhoods)?
4. Speaking of the Caribbean, what about whole countries populated by the descendants of slaves, slave-owners, and indigenous peoples who were misched together over the centuries? Who gives and who gets? Slavery in the Caribbean was much more widespread and brutal than in the United States.
5. Why do you assume West Africa deserves compensation? The local Black yokels were the ones who sold the slaves to begin with… One tribe of vilde chayes would raid the tribe down the road and sell their prisoners to the slave traders, and next season the other tribe would win.
6. What about the East African slave trade, which was a much bigger operation than the Atlantic trade, and very brutal (work on plantations in India and Indonesia, hard labor in the Middle East, etc.), and was conducted exclusively by Arabs… The Arab and Muslim slave traders also engaged in what is today referred to as ‘human trafficking’ of whites… But all this is whitewashed because it doesn’t fit the Liberal race narrative.
7. Reparations ultimately become a ‘Chad Gadya’ type of thing. Suppose we sue Italy for property damage and looting done during Churban Bayis Sheini… They would then sue the Huns and Visigoths (Germany and Norway)? And then what?
The truth is, when Moshiach will come there will be major reparations to be paid with 2000 years of interest… תחת הנחושת אביא זהב ותחת הברזל כסף ותחת העץ נחושת ותחת האבנים ברזל, and there will be those who won’t be able to pay their way תחת רבי עקיבא וחבריו מה תביאו. But לכאורה no human court is capable of figuring this stuff out until then. במהרה בימינו אמן.
“ironically”, there are less claimants to Caribbean slavery – as most of those slaves were dying quickly and were substituted with new arrivals.
Slave descendants in US are probably from the times when importation of slaves stopped and, thus, existing slaves were treated as a multi-generational investment.I mentioned West Africa as a comparison base. A modern US citizen of African descent changed his destiny from being a poor person in West Africa to US. So, white people technically – al pi din? – owe him the difference. This sounds crude (as any exact din) but it is not new thinking, this is thinking behind creation of Liberia and sending freed slaves there.
Seriously speaking, every modern affluent society has an obligation to provide members with opportunities to develop. As it is possible to move up quickly within 1-2 generations, there is no need to look too far back as long as your current society is just. More importantly, provide your help in a wise way that helps people develop, instead of developing dependencies and bad behaviors.
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