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She grew up Frum but was veeeeery chilled out and did things that were not always according to Halachah standards. She went to seminary, Frummed out and is married to a Baruch Hashem Geshmake Kollel Guy who is learning Takah Gevaldig. Sometimes I think to myself.. hey- at the end of the day.. She had fun, enjoyed her teenage years, and straitened out just in the nick of time.. but what did she lose from bein chilled out? And what did I gain from always being solid and making efforts..?
(I know I sound 🙁 and jealous. Thats probly the case..)
She did teshuva and her teshuva worked. Anyone can do teshuva and start totally fresh at any time.
Except – if they plan on being chilled out and sinning and later doing teshuva. Then their teshuva won’t work.
PM – Well said.
There are many maalos to having stayed on the right path the whole time, rather than indulging in the teenage years.
Just because she straitened out doesn’t mean everything is great. You don’t know what nisyonos she might have today as a result of the time she spent chilled out.
From experience I can tell you that in the long run, you save yourself a great deal of heartache by staying straight the whole time rather than taking curves.
A tzaddik gamor is lechatchila. A ba’al teshuvah is bdieved.
DM – Well said 😉
coffee – Well said 🙂
S2021
If she did Aveiros, and di Teshuvah on them good for her. Baruch Hashem, but that’s not the ideal. You are a hero that you fought the nisyonos and didn’t cave in. That makes you mighty. Baruch Hashem she was able to come back. Not everyone has that Mazel. Who knows if you would have been able to come back and do Teshuvah?
Either way, bottom line is she did Aveiros and did things against Hashems will, you should never wish that you could have done the same. It is a mistake to look at her current life and say, “look, you can do blank blank whatever, and then everything turns out alright.”
Everyones life has its own cheshbon. If you haven’t met your “Geshmake Kollel guy” yet that doesn’t mean he’s not going to come into your life in the very near future. Keep Davening and keep having Bitachon in Hashem. You should actually be thankful that Hashem gave you the strength and guided you on the right path so that you didn’t dirty your neshama. You have every reason to be proud of yourself and you should know tha overcoming Nisyonos is the purpose of life and the path to growth. I have no doubt that in the zchus of your overcoming your Nisyonos Hashem will have mercy on you and give you a zivug Hagun Bshaah Tovah Umitzlachas.
Most people I know who followed the type of path you described greatly regret their early indiscretions. They feel the things they did/ saw/ experienced still come back to haunt them in many subtle ways. Additionally that “fun” that they had was really not so fun! I once heard a beautiful mashal. If you see a fish in a fish bowl swimming around he looks rather bored — opening and closing his mouth and drifting along. If you want to see a fish really having a “good time”, take him OUT of the water. He will begin to dance and twirl and party! But the knowledgeable observer knows that the dancing and twirling are a desperate attempt to breathe when removed from his source of oxygen, and the placid fish in the bowl has everything he needs. Similarly often people who seem like they are having a great time are desperately searching for something to bring them satisfaction, acceptance and happiness. I have often heard from baalei teshuva who comment that many FFB’s feel like you do — if only they understood what they are NOT missing, they wouldn’t want it so badly.
Very good and important point, Derech. The Maharal says that a Baal Teshuva (a sinner, not a secular upbringing) has this shortcoming that he is a person of regret. He has a trend in him to turn around and switch directions. That can be used for the good or for bad.
An atittude is something that gets learned but not forgotten. Once somebody spent time enjoying the wrong things, the enjoyment and appreciation of them doesn’t leave the sytem.
coffee – Well said 🙂
shouldn’t you say CA – Well said 😛
m in Israel- like that mashal thank you!
She lost the time she wasted and the averos she did. You gained the opposite.
Firstly, realize that my comments are coming from a non-frum point of view. s2021’s friend is to be commended. She possibly appreciates her current lifestyle even more than someone who never experienced anything else. She had the opportunity to go either way and she chose the right way. This is very similar to many Amish – who are allowed to stray from the fold for a year at a certain age. Nearly all of them come back to their colonies after the year is over because they realize they belong with their families and their chosen lifestyles. A frum person who experiences some of the secular lifestyle (and it doesn’t sound as if this person did anything terrible) and remains frum, knows the right path.
CA – I switch off how I address people.
she was lucky just cuz it worked out specificlay for her doesnt mean it would happen to you that way and you would end up the same mabey for you things would have been worse and you wouldnt have been that lucky.
real-brisker- who knows what you’ll decide to call me soon
Take a minute to think.. do you think she just went to sem and frummed out just like that?? it takes alot of effort to change.
Even if it sounds to you like she had it all , at the end of the day do you think it was worth it? After being chilled it is NOT easy to change attitude in a sec. it’s HARD work.
A little bit of fun = years of regret and tremendous effort to get back on track…
In my opinion.. aint worth it.
And what you also don’t live with, is the guilt she lives with for the averos she committed. From time to time, I have flashbacks of things I did, and it really drags me down. Now imagine that, multiplied by years of being not yet frum.
Highly doubtful she looks back an enjoys the memories. Consider yourself lucky that you managed to sidestep that. Teshuva is between you and Hashem, but you still can’t undo the memories.
“A little bit of fun = years of regret and tremendous effort to get back on track…”
Don’t you think that she was “meant” to come back – it was in Hashem’s plan. Many of our youngsters who go off the derech completely do it for many reasons. However, many of them do it because they have been raised in such an insular environment that they feel like the odd man out. They learn about the “outside” world from a variety of places and begin to wonder about such mundane things as TV’s, movies, computers, etc. Then when they experience some of these things, they just grab on with both hands. I think that parents should (with a great deal of supervision) introduce some of these to their children so that they don’t feel like they are being left behind or left out. A couple of years ago I had a conversation with a young person who left the very frum life behind for just these reasons. He told me that he felt badly for his parents and siblings but he had to live his life in his own way. He told me that he couldn’t leave Judaism and his love for Hashem and for studying behind, so he became a Conservative Jew. After a few years, his parents began to understand that he was a different person that his siblings and began to sort of accept his choice. They began speaking and there was far more shalom in his family. They even began eating at his home as he still kept the same level of kashruth as in the home was raised.
“Ashrei mi she’lo chata…” (Gemora Sukka)
reading this post makes me thing that you can just do whatever you want and then do teshuva when you are done
Its very different having “fun” as a teenager than as an adult.
While its true than a 12 year old girl or 13 year old boy is halachly an adult, maturity wise they usually are not.
FYI It is not clear what the friend did that was wrong. Going to the movies for example is not the same thing as hanging out at McDonalds
What is the aveira in being “chilled out”? Please explain what it means to be chilled out.
adorable
“reading this post makes me thing that you can just do whatever you want and then do teshuva when you are done”
That is technically true. Hashem always accepts Teshuvah when it is sincere, however the mussar sefarim say or rather quote(I believe the Gemara says it first) that “One who says I will sin and then do Teshuvah” his Teshuvah is not accepted, but if one sins by accident or even on purpose because they couldnt control their Yeitzer Harah but regret it sincrely and did a real Teshuvah as outlined by the Rambam in Hilchos Teshuvah, then his/her Teshuvah is accepted 10000%
read the rest of the sentence. not only is she chilled but to the point that she did not do things according to Halacha.
Not trying to minize the issue.
But many frum teens are not makpid on stuff like shomer negiah and if thats what she broke it isnt the end of the world, but if she ate a Big Mac thats very different.
Doing either is not according to Halacha, and its probably a bigger deal to have eaten the Big Mac
That’s what I don’t understand. What is the connection between chilled out and not following halacha?
Zahavasdad
Wow. Do you know that touching a Niddah is assur and may even be an issur Kareis for the boy that she allows to touch her?
Shomer negiah is a big deal!
“… was veeeeery chilled out and did things that were not always according to Halachah standards.”
“That’s what I don’t understand. What is the connection between chilled out and not following halacha?”
there’s a whole wide world out there w/ teens hanging out in mixed groups & getting pretty wild, drinking, smoking, experimenting w/ drugs, etc. .. here in America & when the teens go to Israel for the year (or 2).
have you ever been to ‘Crack Square’, Rechov Yaffa, in Yerushalayim @ night… it’s quite a scene.
So you are going to tell me that a girl who hung out with a guy and they held hands and kissed when they were 18. After they both mature a bit (not everyone who is 18 is very mature). He gets married (and she gets married) both to other people.
He becomes a real Ba’al habyis is she becomes a real ba’als Habusta.
But because they engaged in holding hands and kissing when they were 18, He gets Karis and no matter how many times he keeps shabbos , Learns Daf Yomi, Gives Shiurim or anything else he does. He is cutoff from the rest of Jewery.
Please show me the exact source that says that merely touching a niddah results in punishment by kareis. I thought that punishment was reserved for one who actually has physically intimate relations with a niddah.
Everyone is on their own pathway in life. You can not compare your adherance to religious ways with another person’s. That said you can assist your friend in her life and you can certainly keep her interests in mind. In fact, those who return to Judaism are often stronger than those who never strayed in some senses. So be glad for her if she is on the Derech today.
zahavasdad: what you’re describing is NOT a big deal for a FFB????????????!?!?!?
help!!!
i think i’m too old to be reading the cr. 🙁
WIY- I’m going to have to agree with zhavasdad here. While Shomer Negiah is important it is a geder to prevent issurei kares, not a chiyuv kares itself. Not even close…
always here
All the hanging out and other actions done at these locations were a result of being far away from parents, though not necessarily one reason. I know firsthand of guys and girls who were “mature” in high school but started down the wrong path once in Israel, usually from bad friends or just plain curiosity on what the other world was like.
There is this idea when being a teenager to be cool and see actors, athletes,and others as role models (despite the fact they live a life of values that are anti-Torah.)But once one matures and sees the emptiness of the hedonistic lifestyle and anti-Torah values, the role models become the appropriate ones. One chavrusa of mine used to have a picture of a movie star known for committing very unethical acts and after he left Israel when to his room and replaced it with a picture of Rav Moshe.
Again. What is the corrolation between chilled and violating halacha? Please define chilled.
heter
optimusprime~ it’s going on big-time here in Brooklyn, too. & these kids live @ home.
It is the same where I hail from in New Jersey and in different communities in Israel where I have been too (RBS is a well knwon example.)
IMHO what has become the “norm” is to “have fun” in high school and only afterwards do the right thing, despite the fact almost everyone committing these ill acts know its wrong from the start. I do not know where this came about, but many from my high school class and my neighborhood always have done this.
Chilled means hetter?
I’m confused.
hefker I would think.
oomis1105,
Correct, but it is still likely an issur D’oraisa, and I don’t see how one can minimize it and say it’s clearly better than eating at McDonalds. They’re both terrible (although the yetzer hara for McDonalds is less for most people).
Chilled = hefker? People tell ME that I am chilled, I’m the last person they would also call hefker.
Having a good time does not equal being hefker.
I think to many activities have been made “assur” ergo those who engage in them are suddenly engaged in activities against halacha. Perhaps some adults should chill out.
D”Y, holding hands with a niddah is NOT the same issur as eating at McDonald’s, and anyone who says so, is probably committing the same type of lo tosif as Adam Harishon did when he told Chava they could not even touch the eitz hadaas, whent hat was NOT what Hashem said to Adam.
I am not saying that anyone SHOULD touch a niddah, but if they do, lightning will most likely not strike them, and they will therefore lose their desire to refrain from doing so. It is far better IMO to tell young people that the reasons for shemiras negiya are specifically to help them to avoid a situation that can strongly lead to an aveira that IS chayav koreis. But they should not be told that they would get koreis for touching a niddah, if it simply is not true. Then they don’t believe that which IS true.
s2021, at the end of the day, we do not know why pple do certain things, and there life looks so green. as stated above, we do not know nisyonos she went through to have to get where she is now and stay at that level , or move up etc. you will get exactly what is coming to you, which should be in the right time. wishing you hatzlocha.
zhavasdad: I would say between the two, violating shomer negiah is worse than eating a cheeseburger in Mcdonalds. Violating Shomer Negiah he and she might think is not a big deal, but when he ate that cheeseburger, he probably knew he was doing very wrong.
touching is worse. It is deoraisa of lo sikrvu l’galos erva and also yehreig v’al yaavor because of abizrahu d’arayos.
s2021,
When her kids are teenagers, she may really suffer then. She won’t know how to provide for them a real frum role model, as she did not live through it. She may have a lot of difficulties with her kids.
D”Y, holding hands with a niddah is NOT the same issur as eating at McDonald’s, and anyone who says so, is probably committing the same type of lo tosif as Adam Harishon did when he told Chava they could not even touch the eitz hadaas, whent hat was NOT what Hashem said to Adam.
The difference is is that Hashem DID say not to engage in behavior which may lead to giluy arayos.
but if they do, lightning will most likely not strike them
Not in this world. Same as a cheeseburger. Or as hello99 pointed out, worse.
they should not be told that they would get koreis for touching a niddah, if it simply is not true
Agreed, but they should be told that’s it’s a very severe issur D’oraisa, for which one one would be obligated to give up his/her life not to transgress.
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