So should I daven mussaf?

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  • #604227

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    On Friday afternoon, the Heir to the Shattya Dynasty and I had the following shaila. Perhaps we even did it on purpose to have such a good shaila.

    We forgot to say yaaleh v’yavoh during mincha, then we davened maariv for early shabbos and it was still day. Then we went and asked the rosh kollel whether we should daven over, and should we say a minch or a maariv, and should it be a weekday one or a shabbos one, and should we say yaaleh v’yavoh or v’sein tal umattar.

    If anyone can answer this shaila with a compelling source, I will dedicate to them a troll thread.

    #887158

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I would say that since you accepted Shabbos your Minchah is gone. You can’t unaccept it. It’s almost K’ilu you made Tzeis occur already (see Tosfos Brachos 26a which is also a Limud Z’chus for those who say K’riyas Shma and S’firas Ha’omer early after accepting Shabbos Friday night). I would say that you should Daven a second Ma’ariv for Tashlumin (I believe that the Shulchan Aruch and the vast majority of Poskim Pasken against Tosfos that says that you don’t gain anything by doing Tashmulin at Ma’ariv since you wouldn’t say Ya’aleh V’yavo anyway). However, the Rashba quoted in the Beis Yosef (that I mentioned in another thread) might mean that because you asked the Shaila, it might have been too late and you would have been stuck. But many don’t bring down that Rashba and you were clearly still Osek in Inyanei T’fillah, so you probably would Daven a second Shabbos Ma’ariv (without Ya’aleh V’yavo). I have no idea why you mentioned V’sein Tal Umatar.

    #887159

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    and what would sam say if we remembered after early maariv that we had forgotten to say the omer

    #887160

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, can you find me a source on point which is shulchan aruch or later?

    #887161

    Chacham
    Participant

    ” compelling source”

    how about the Mishna berurah in 108 36 (and wikisource from some crazzy reason thinks that ben ish chai, lvush , kitzur, shulchan aruch harav and aruch hashulchan come before MB so i cannot qoute it for you.)

    Mechaber 108, 11 ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????:

    however the MB 36 says if a one day rC is erev shabos you do not repeat because there is no nedavos on shabbos.

    It could be lchumra you should have in mind to be yotzei by mein sheva ( big maharsham about this somewhere)

    other eitzos

    1.you can be shoel on the kaballas shabbos. ( however it could be a problem of lemafrea making brachos levatala. I once saw such a chasam sofer about being shoel on hafrashas teruma.

    Abou vsain tal.

    3. REB Chaim Stensils in Brachos 26b says that not mentioning (Yaaleh Vyavo to those that argue on tosfos 26b and) Vsain Tal Umatar has the din of not davening therefore you must redaven maariv of shabbos like the Shulchan aruch in 108-9 However Har tzvi oraach chaim 54 and Steipler brachos 16 and other poskim argue regarding vsain tal umatar and you do not have to repeat it leil shabbos ( i remember seeing in an early chelek of yeshurun a long shtickel on this from dayan fisher zt”l who brough many rayas to the har tzvis opinion.

    Now dedicate a troll.

    btw.. what does mussaf have to do with anything.

    #887162

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chacham:

    No troll thread yet. MB 108:36 is talking about where it is already night probably. In my case, it was still daytime.

    #887163

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No troll thread yet. MB 108:36 is talking about where it is already night probably. In my case, it was still daytime.

    OK, but why wouldn’t the issur of t’fillas nedava still apply?

    As far as Mincha is concerned, see Mechaber 263:15 (and M”B 59 that he is referring to where it’s still daytime).

    #887164

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Because who says you can’t daven a nedava on Friday afternoon after you were mekabel shabbos?

    #887165

    Chacham
    Participant

    what about being shoel on the kabbalas shabbos

    #887166

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa,

    Because who says you can’t daven a nedava on Friday afternoon after you were mekabel shabbos?

    I don’t understand your question. Which of the following two statements are you questioning?

    1) We don’t say nedava on Shabbos.

    2) One must keep all of the halachos of Shabbos after accepting it (any time after plag).

    An argument I could hear is that we only don’t allow Mincha after being m’kabel Shabbos is because you can anyhow daven two Maarivs; since doesn’t apply here, one can daven Mincha. I don’t find this mistaver, though.

    #887167

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: I don’t question either of those. I question that each one is so clear that when you add them together you get 2.

    #887168

    Chacham
    Participant

    I can be krum and say pilpul. The reason the MB 107,6 of ain nedavos bshabbos is only becasue you can’t bring a korban nedava bshabbos. NOw since being mekabbel shabbos early is a private din talui in you (and lfi rov rishonim a shvus) in the Bais hamikdash they can still bring nedavos. but like i said this is krum.

    But i can’t find anything else

    #887169

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: The proof that it’s like the day is completely over is that you don’t say Ya’aleh V’yavo in Bentsching even if you finish the meal before Shkiah friday night.

    #887170

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: No, because a Kohen who was M’kabel early can’t bring Korbanos after that.

    #887171

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    sam: now we’re being medameh milsah l’milsah. To that I say: “maybe”.

    #887172

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Is that a B’shittah answer on anyone being M’dameh or you’re Maskim that this could be a legitimate comparison?

    #887173

    Chacham
    Participant

    sam2 ain shvus bamikdash ………….

    #887174

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, I’m maskim it could be a good answer. I’m just holding out my troll thread for someone who can give me a clear source. We spent about 45 minutes going back and forth friday night with the rosh kollel, and ended up basically guessing off a diyuk.

    #887175

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: Kabbalas Shabbos is a Shvus? I don’t think so.

    #887176

    Kozov
    Member

    Its kind of hard to follow this thread but did someone say tashlumin is the same thing as nidava?

    #887177

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa,

    Maariv is by definition a night tefillah, so relying on the tzad that it’s still day (and mutar to say nedava) is tartei d’sarei (which may be what Sam meant).

    #887178

    Chacham
    Participant

    the chiyuv of tosefes shabbos is a shvus therefore we are meikil with another shvus bmkom mitzvah

    #887179

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Beis Yosef in 263 quotes a Mordche that if you didn’t Daven Mincha and you answered barchu, don’t Daven Mincha. Once you were Mekadesh the Yom don’t make it Chol again by Davenning Mincha of Chol. You should rather Daven two Maarivs.

    #887180

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You should rather Daven two Maarivs.

    In this case, you can’t (according to one shittah which we are choshesh for), because there is nothing being added, since the reason you need to daven again is for missing Yaaleh V’yavo, but you can’t say it now anyway since it is no longer Rosh Chodesh. Nor can you make it a tefillas nedavah b’tnai, because we don’t say tefillas nedavah on Shabbos.

    #887181

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: D’rbannan doesn’t necessarily mean Shvus. And I thought most Rishonim held that Tosefes Shabbos was D’oraisa.

    #887182

    Good Shaila.

    I looked at a few seforim, nothing much.

    Two Ideas though of mine (not mentioned previously) both pro and con:

    For being able to daven Musaf: There is a shaila by sefiras haomer and blowing shofar in the same scenario of early shabbos (after maariv). The Taz says no, but I believe the Halacha is (I think R’ Moshe agrees with this opinion) you can blow shofar or count sefira or read megilla…with brachas and details I don’t know. So to, it would seem, it still is Friday and R”H but just tosefes shabbos on top of that. By mincha it is different because you davened maariv, musaf though is connected to the day, which still is lasting til shkiyah.

    Against: there is an halacha I don’t understand but seems to be the main opinion. When R”H falls on motzei shabbos, one should be particular to stop eating before shkiyah because if it not it would be a stira in bentsching. I don’t get that because it is still Shabbos because of tosefes shabbos and it is now Rosh Chodesh. I don’t get why that is a contradiction. But most seem to disagree though some say both retzeh and yaaleh v’yavo. Not sure if this is same by our case, but it could be similar regading being contradictory.

    DQB

    #887183

    Kozov
    Member

    What about M”B 108:25?

    #887184

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Kozov: see 21 and 36

    #887185

    Sam2
    Participant

    DQB: I don’t know where you get it from that the Halachah is to stop eating by Shkiyah. There are three opinions on what to do in such a case. There are 3 different prominent Minhagim. If you don’t know your Minhag, ask your father or your Rav, or research what the Minhag was in the community your family came from. It is only the most recent of Halachah Sefarim (and I mean recent, I don’t think any Sefer more than 20 years old says this) that say to avoid the situation. (And yes, I know R’ Schachter is big on not eating after Shkiyah in such a case.)

    #887186

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Its kind of hard to follow this thread but did someone say tashlumin is the same thing as nidava?

    No. In a case where it’s uncertain if tashlumin is required, one should daven twice, the second with a t’nai: if tashlumin is required, the SHM”E is required for tashlumin, it should be tashlumin. If not required, it should be for a nedava.

    The reason popa’s case is so fascinating is that there are a number of complications:

    1) He didn’t omit the entire SHM”E, just Yaaleh V’yavo. Since the tashlumin would also be without Y”V, there is a machlokes whether or not it applies. Normally, the M”B would recommend the nedava b’tnai approach previously described.

    2) This, however, is not a normal situation, since he accepted Shabbos by davening Maariv, and we don’t say tefilas nedava on Shabbos (a full-fledged, unconditional tashlumin, however, could be said).

    3) Nor, taynas popa, is this an ordinary case of not saying nedava on Shabbos, since it’s only Shabbos via his acceptance, since it’s not yet shkiya. (I do not feel this is a valid chiluk.)

    #887187

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    DY, that’s interesting, since it looks like Tosafos gave the Rif the last word.

    #887188

    pcoz
    Member

    the igros moshe says bechi hai gavna if you missed sefirah you can’t count becuase it’s tomorrow for you and I guess you can’t untomorrow it

    #887189

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: Also, even if you were right it wouldn’t help. Assuming we call Tosefes Shabbos a Shvus (which I am not Modeh to you at all) that would just mean that there is no Chiyuv to accept it in the Mikdash. Not if you do that it wouldn’t be Chal.

    #887190

    My wife asked me the same thing, pretty much – she forgot to daven mussaf and after lighting, she asked whether she could still daven mussaf since it was before shkia. Unequivocally no, since – for a woman – lighting means accepting shabbos, and it’s either shabbos or not.

    In either case, a tashlumin would be a regular plain shabbos night maariv. And, keep in mind, tashlumin can only be done right after the regular shmoneh esrei…. not hours later.

    #887191

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And, keep in mind, tashlumin can only be done right after the regular shmoneh esrei…. not hours later.

    M”B (108:15) concludes that b’dieved, one should daven as long as it’s still within the z’man of that tefillah; the opportunity is not missed. He advises that the second tefillah be a nedava b’tnai when possible.

    #887193

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Chiyuv of accepting Tosafos Shabbos and the validity of the Shabbos that you accepted are two separate things.

    On Motzai Shabbos, though, I remember aa Tosafos that says you won’t be Chayav for doing a Melacha before Havdala. There is a Chiyuv to be Mavdil but you can’t be Chayav until then.

    The interesting is though, that the Poskim discuss telling someone who was already Mavdil to do a Melacha before you were Mavdil, without mentioning this Tosafos.

    #887194

    Sam2
    Participant

    There is no Tashlumin for Mussaf, just to be clear. Only Shacharis, Minchah, and Ma’ariv.

    #887195

    Kozov
    Member

    Does Tosfos hold there is no issue with Tashlumin friday night for erev Shabbos mincha? Why would that be different than missing out hazkoras shabbos by shabbos mincha which can’t be fixed?

    #887196

    Sam2
    Participant

    Kozov: Tosfos divides the Chiyuvim in a T’fillas Rosh Chodesh. He says there’s a Chiyuv T’fillah and then a Chiyuv to add Me’ein Ham’ora. And that can’t be accomplished by simply adding an additional T’fillah without that Me’ein Ham’ora. On a day that creates its own Shmoneh Esrei, though, there’s the same Chiyuv T’fillah as always, it’s just in a different form.

    #887197

    Kozov
    Member

    Thanks DaasYochid and Sam for the clarification.

    #887198

    Chacham
    Participant

    nuuu popa tell us!

    #887199

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Actually, Tosafos says that if you mess up Shabbos Mincha then you Daven twice Motzai Shabbos since there is a gain, the fact that you are saying the full 18 Brachos. However, when you miss the Yaale Veyavo of Erev Shabbos and recite twice Maariv Friday night, you don’t gain anything.

    #887201

    Kozov
    Member

    According to Tosfos would you be yotze bchol with tfillas shabbos bdieved?

    Haleivi what is the full 18 brochos fixing?

    #887202

    Chacham
    Participant

    nuuu popa tell us!

    #887203

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t have an answer. The rosh kollel was medayek from the MB 36 that it says if you remember after it is dark, instead of saying if you remember after you daven maariv. So based on that, he said we should say maariv shmone esrei. (meaning, that he was medayek from that that you can daven nedava before shekia)

    #887204

    Chacham
    Participant

    oy- I don’t think that is a very glatta diyuk. there is no sevara whatsoever that you can do a nedava before shkia. Did he have any additional rayas

    #887205

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is no svara? I think there is.

    Anyway, that’s what it is. If you’ve got better, go at it.

    #887206

    Chacham
    Participant

    If the din of nedava is talui in the fact you cannot bring a nedava on shabbos why should you be mechalek before or after shkiah? AS everyone already said the dinim of tefilah are all talui in your kabalas shabbos. Therefore there is no hechrech and reason to be medayeik the lashon of the MB. I will bli neder try to be meayin more in the seforim.

    #887207

    dash™
    Participant

    According to Tosfos would you be yotze bchol with tfillas shabbos bdieved?

    Haleivi what is the full 18 brochos fixing?

    It’s the other way around. If you were to say 18+1 on shabbos you would be yotzei davening.

    #887208

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Haleivi what is the full 18 brochos fixing?

    Tosafos is not actually referring to Friday Rosh Chodesh specifically. He is talking about any Rosh Chodesh when the following night is not Rosh Chodesh. He says there is no point in Davenning what you already Davened since you won’t be replacing the lost Yaale Veyavo, anyhow. That was in contrast to missing a Tefilla, totally. Even if the Tefilla you missed was a Shabbos Mincha while the Tashlumin Tefilla will be a Chol Tefilla, you are at least replacing a Tefilla for a lost Tefilla.

    It seems from the argument that Tosafos holds the same about missing the Hazkoras Shabbos by Shabbos Mincha. There is nothing gained by Davenning another weekday Tefilla. (Obviously, if someone said the Shabbos Mincha without Hazkoras Shabbos, he actually didn’t Daven, so that’s the same as missing it.)

    What I wrote before was a misrepresentation of Tosafos. Sorry about that.

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