So should I daven mussaf?

PBA: I would say that since you accepted Shabbos your Minchah is gone. You can’t unaccept it. It’s almost K’ilu you made Tzeis occur already (see Tosfos Brachos 26a which is also a Limud Z’chus for those who say K’riyas Shma and S’firas Ha’omer early after accepting Shabbos Friday night). I would say that you should Daven a second Ma’ariv for Tashlumin (I believe that the Shulchan Aruch and the vast majority of Poskim Pasken against Tosfos that says that you don’t gain anything by doing Tashmulin at Ma’ariv since you wouldn’t say Ya’aleh V’yavo anyway). However, the Rashba quoted in the Beis Yosef (that I mentioned in another thread) might mean that because you asked the Shaila, it might have been too late and you would have been stuck. But many don’t bring down that Rashba and you were clearly still Osek in Inyanei T’fillah, so you probably would Daven a second Shabbos Ma’ariv (without Ya’aleh V’yavo). I have no idea why you mentioned V’sein Tal Umatar.

Popa,

Because who says you can’t daven a nedava on Friday afternoon after you were mekabel shabbos?

I don’t understand your question. Which of the following two statements are you questioning?

1) We don’t say nedava on Shabbos.

2) One must keep all of the halachos of Shabbos after accepting it (any time after plag).

An argument I could hear is that we only don’t allow Mincha after being m’kabel Shabbos is because you can anyhow daven two Maarivs; since doesn’t apply here, one can daven Mincha. I don’t find this mistaver, though.

I can be krum and say pilpul. The reason the MB 107,6 of ain nedavos bshabbos is only becasue you can’t bring a korban nedava bshabbos. NOw since being mekabbel shabbos early is a private din talui in you (and lfi rov rishonim a shvus) in the Bais hamikdash they can still bring nedavos. but like i said this is krum.

But i can’t find anything else

Chacham: No, because a Kohen who was M’kabel early can’t bring Korbanos after that.

PBA: Is that a B’shittah answer on anyone being M’dameh or you’re Maskim that this could be a legitimate comparison?

Its kind of hard to follow this thread but did someone say tashlumin is the same thing as nidava?

the chiyuv of tosefes shabbos is a shvus therefore we are meikil with another shvus bmkom mitzvah

You should rather Daven two Maarivs.

In this case, you can’t (according to one shittah which we are choshesh for), because there is nothing being added, since the reason you need to daven again is for missing Yaaleh V’yavo, but you can’t say it now anyway since it is no longer Rosh Chodesh. Nor can you make it a tefillas nedavah b’tnai, because we don’t say tefillas nedavah on Shabbos.

Good Shaila.

I looked at a few seforim, nothing much.

Two Ideas though of mine (not mentioned previously) both pro and con:

For being able to daven Musaf: There is a shaila by sefiras haomer and blowing shofar in the same scenario of early shabbos (after maariv). The Taz says no, but I believe the Halacha is (I think R’ Moshe agrees with this opinion) you can blow shofar or count sefira or read megilla…with brachas and details I don’t know. So to, it would seem, it still is Friday and R”H but just tosefes shabbos on top of that. By mincha it is different because you davened maariv, musaf though is connected to the day, which still is lasting til shkiyah.

Against: there is an halacha I don’t understand but seems to be the main opinion. When R”H falls on motzei shabbos, one should be particular to stop eating before shkiyah because if it not it would be a stira in bentsching. I don’t get that because it is still Shabbos because of tosefes shabbos and it is now Rosh Chodesh. I don’t get why that is a contradiction. But most seem to disagree though some say both retzeh and yaaleh v’yavo. Not sure if this is same by our case, but it could be similar regading being contradictory.

DQB

Its kind of hard to follow this thread but did someone say tashlumin is the same thing as nidava?

No. In a case where it’s uncertain if tashlumin is required, one should daven twice, the second with a t’nai: if tashlumin is required, the SHM”E is required for tashlumin, it should be tashlumin. If not required, it should be for a nedava.

The reason popa’s case is so fascinating is that there are a number of complications:

1) He didn’t omit the entire SHM”E, just Yaaleh V’yavo. Since the tashlumin would also be without Y”V, there is a machlokes whether or not it applies. Normally, the M”B would recommend the nedava b’tnai approach previously described.

2) This, however, is not a normal situation, since he accepted Shabbos by davening Maariv, and we don’t say tefilas nedava on Shabbos (a full-fledged, unconditional tashlumin, however, could be said).

3) Nor, taynas popa, is this an ordinary case of not saying nedava on Shabbos, since it’s only Shabbos via his acceptance, since it’s not yet shkiya. (I do not feel this is a valid chiluk.)

the igros moshe says bechi hai gavna if you missed sefirah you can’t count becuase it’s tomorrow for you and I guess you can’t untomorrow it

My wife asked me the same thing, pretty much – she forgot to daven mussaf and after lighting, she asked whether she could still daven mussaf since it was before shkia. Unequivocally no, since – for a woman – lighting means accepting shabbos, and it’s either shabbos or not.

In either case, a tashlumin would be a regular plain shabbos night maariv. And, keep in mind, tashlumin can only be done right after the regular shmoneh esrei…. not hours later.

The Chiyuv of accepting Tosafos Shabbos and the validity of the Shabbos that you accepted are two separate things.

On Motzai Shabbos, though, I remember aa Tosafos that says you won’t be Chayav for doing a Melacha before Havdala. There is a Chiyuv to be Mavdil but you can’t be Chayav until then.

The interesting is though, that the Poskim discuss telling someone who was already Mavdil to do a Melacha before you were Mavdil, without mentioning this Tosafos.

Does Tosfos hold there is no issue with Tashlumin friday night for erev Shabbos mincha? Why would that be different than missing out hazkoras shabbos by shabbos mincha which can’t be fixed?

Thanks DaasYochid and Sam for the clarification.

Actually, Tosafos says that if you mess up Shabbos Mincha then you Daven twice Motzai Shabbos since there is a gain, the fact that you are saying the full 18 Brachos. However, when you miss the Yaale Veyavo of Erev Shabbos and recite twice Maariv Friday night, you don’t gain anything.

nuuu popa tell us!

oy- I don’t think that is a very glatta diyuk. there is no sevara whatsoever that you can do a nedava before shkia. Did he have any additional rayas

If the din of nedava is talui in the fact you cannot bring a nedava on shabbos why should you be mechalek before or after shkiah? AS everyone already said the dinim of tefilah are all talui in your kabalas shabbos. Therefore there is no hechrech and reason to be medayeik the lashon of the MB. I will bli neder try to be meayin more in the seforim.

Haleivi what is the full 18 brochos fixing?

Tosafos is not actually referring to Friday Rosh Chodesh specifically. He is talking about any Rosh Chodesh when the following night is not Rosh Chodesh. He says there is no point in Davenning what you already Davened since you won’t be replacing the lost Yaale Veyavo, anyhow. That was in contrast to missing a Tefilla, totally. Even if the Tefilla you missed was a Shabbos Mincha while the Tashlumin Tefilla will be a Chol Tefilla, you are at least replacing a Tefilla for a lost Tefilla.

It seems from the argument that Tosafos holds the same about missing the Hazkoras Shabbos by Shabbos Mincha. There is nothing gained by Davenning another weekday Tefilla. (Obviously, if someone said the Shabbos Mincha without Hazkoras Shabbos, he actually didn’t Daven, so that’s the same as missing it.)

What I wrote before was a misrepresentation of Tosafos. Sorry about that.