Social & Communal pressure on M’agnim?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Social & Communal pressure on M’agnim?

Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1819101

    Haimy
    Participant

    Why do we as a community remain silent in the face of M’agnim who refuse to give their wives a Get & leave their wives agunos for many years? We are a community that practices chessed verachamim, why do we tolerate this terrible travesty to occur within our community & remain silent?

    #1819164

    The little I know
    Participant

    Haimy:

    You base your accusation on a generalization, and that is neither fair nor accurate.

    The climate is that there are people in the world that are evil and rotten. The couple that has not finalized the severance of their marriage (whether by divorce or gett) may not involve anyone that is evil. The process requires a resolution of the affairs of division. It can be either party that is stubborn and will not resolve the issues. The stats are really close to 50-50 on this. When the wife who wants to restrict visitation or makes accusations to the court does not receive the gett with these other issues are pending is generally reasonable in that, and it is unfair and dishonest to call him a m’again.

    And there are also m’agnim who are deserving of the showers of disgrace. We may wonder whether this treatment is warranted or effective. The system is not good. But I can safely state that a sizable percentage of people labeled m’agnim are not guilty. True chessed verachamim is about participating in a negotiation process, and not digging in the heels and trying to destroy the other party. It is also about the refraining from joining in the conflict. Too many times, there are others, ostensibly with noble intentions, who take a side, and contribute to the fight instead of helping to bring about resolution.

    #1819155

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Because most of us do not know the facts of each case, so we have no way to know whether the man is indeed unjustly refusing to give a get that an honest beis din has properly ordered him to give, or whether he is justly fighting for his rights against a moredes, who is demanding a get without any right whatsoever, and thinks that instead of persuading him she can get what she wants by applying communal pressure. Even if some poster claims a beis din ordered a get, we don’t know whether it did so validly, or it’s one of those fake “botei din” that unlawfully order a get whenever the wife wants one. Since we don’t know who is right, we stay out of it.

    #1819231

    Joseph
    Participant

    Haimy: Who said there’s a Chiyuv to give a Get? Generally there isn’t; a husband is under no halachic obligation to give a Get if he wants to remain married.

    That said, where’s the outcry against all the Moredes’? Of that, unlike m’agnim, there are many. That’s where the real pressure, intolerance and lack of silence needs to be directed.

    #1819281

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Communal & Social Pressure doesn’t work. All it will do is force the husband to leave the community. Once that happens the chance of him giving a get or providing any financial support is highly unlikely.

    #1819400

    The little I know
    Participant

    Abba:

    If we are fortunate enough, the m’agein will travel to Israel. Once the information is transmitted there, there is an option that has been used on Americans to arrest, prevent from leaving the country, etc. until the gett is given. I know of this happening. I am not expert in the gett me’usah matter, but it has apparently been addressed by mainstream and recognized poskim who consider these gittin completely valid.

    #1819457

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK: It’s happened a few times already and is widely known as of now such as any husband in a contentious gittin dispute should be well aware of the risk prior to traveling to Israel that the zionist rabbanut there can be utilized to prevent their departure back home.

    That being said, there’s a well known case from a number of years ago where the rabbanut prevented an American husband from returning to the US for that reason and he got the US State Department involved and the State Department forced Israel to release the American who was only being held over a religious gittin dispute that transpired in the US with his American wife, none of them having any permanent connection to the State of Israel.

    #1819523

    chash
    Participant

    @milhouse
    Spot on. Nothing more to add to your statement. Its the exact truth everyone.
    I actually grew up with certain members of my family helping divorced women, specifically women. After a time i began to see that most of the PROLONGED, UGLY, AND DRAWN OUT cases where the fault of the person my family member was trying to help. I was even commissioned to partake in certain ventures to “convince” the ‘rouge husband’ to give a get. And when finally meeting the relevant parties, it all became clear, that it is all completely unclear.
    Hope that helps.

    #1819504

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    And I know of cases where the detention was ultimately successful. Perhaps the intervention by the State Department has lost its effectiveness, or it has not become policy for us to intervene.

    #1819553

    The little I know
    Participant

    chash:

    Our generation has witnessed a proliferation of ugly divorces. Instead of agreeing to part ways, and mediating a resolution to the division of property, financial agreements, and settling issues regarding children, there are bitter fights in batei din and courts. The toanim and lawyers are raking it in, and both sides lose, even if they win. It is not uncommon that others get involved and jump into the quicksand, including family members, friends, askanim, and rabbonim. The processes get so ugly that everyone emerges after something concludes full of mud and dirt. Bitter feelings can linger for years. It is nearly always a horrible picture.

    We cannot always make a marriage last when one or both parties don’t want it. And we cannot push them to divorce when they don’t want. It is quite common that the ultimate wrench in the mechanism gets used. It’s called “I want shalom bayis”. It forces the hands of the dayanim to “give it one more try”. A common excuse for a m’again is “I don’t want to divorce, I want to work on the marriage”. And because of the halachos of gett me’usah, the beis din is limited in what it can do. To be fair, there are as many women who refuse to take a gett, using similar excuses. Prolonging the negotiation for the gett is close to universal, as is the running to court to create bigger problems from the smaller ones. In such situations, there is an option for men of the heter me’ah rabbonim, so the women don’t get the edge in resisting the ending of the marriage.

    Divorce is painful for anyone, and having support before, during, and after is simply reasonable. When support transforms into advocacy with advice to increase the level of fight and bitterness, it becomes a liability, no longer an asset. I wish more people understood this.

    Lastly, we all witness people being brought into a picture late in the game. They are expected to help resolve some issues that have lingered until that point. Without knowing all sides and all the facts, their intentions to help might be noble, but are more apt to be disruptive. I have seen this personally many times.

    #1819636

    Abba_S
    Participant

    TLIK Community pressure will only force the husband out of the community. Once he leaves it is very difficult to keep track of him and get a get Even if you have a tracker on the husband, which is probably illegal as it is stalking, he can change his name from Jacob to Jake legally and have a Passport under the new name. So even though you notified the Israeli Government since the names on the court documents don’t match his passport he wouldn’t be detained.
    In most of these cases the husband feels he didn’t get a fair portion and his concerns weren’t addressed, which is why he isn’t giving the get. Unfortunately lawyers tend to fight for the best financial deal for their client not taking the get in mind. In many cases the husband is left broke and can’t even afford a basement apartment and then the ex-wife’s family expects him to give a get.

    #1819645

    The little I know
    Participant

    Abba:

    Correct, that the social pressures often result in the husband running away, thereby further preventing a get. I haven’t encountered a case of name change, but suppose it is possible. It is often the husband feels he is not getting a fair shake, and that is a major ingredient in his refusal to give the get. But the refusal is a separate crime, and the decisions of court or BD are not valid excuses. As for the husband being left broke, it certainly does happen, but that is not the rule. The husband can document his income, and even with all the statutes about child support, they will not force a guy to be homeless. It gets sticky when the husband makes his money off the books, is capable of supporting nicely, yet hides behind the statute requirements. In BD, this is not as often the case because they are not afraid to ask and discover about the non-reported income.

    Again, either side can be recalcitrant in completing an agreement, and the get should typically follow such agreement.

    #1819647

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is quite common that the ultimate wrench in the mechanism gets used. It’s called “I want shalom bayis”. It forces the hands of the dayanim to “give it one more try”. A common excuse for a m’again is “I don’t want to divorce, I want to work on the marriage”. And because of the halachos of gett me’usah, the beis din is limited in what it can do. To be fair, there are as many women who refuse to take a gett, using similar excuses.

    TLIK: Your characterization in this part of your comment is absolutely incorrect. Declaring a desire for Shalom Bayis, even if the other spouse is adamantly insisting on divorce, can and often is legitimate and sincerely desired.

    Indeed the Torah, needless to say, is absolutely correct in extending this right to the husband; and Rabbeinu Gershom is correct in further extending this right to wives, where she previously hadn’t had the right Al Pi Torah, to insist on Shalom Bayis. Your opinion would indicate a belief on your part that Rabbeinu Gershom was mistaken in making the insistence of Shalom Bayis, despite the husband’s insistence on divorcing, a right for wives to veto their husband’s wish to divorce. Not to mention disagreement with the same Torah right husband’s have to veto a wife’s request for divorce.

    #1819700

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    You mischaracterize my position. I have no issue neither with Torah Law nor with takanos of Rabbenu Gershom. Let me try and explain again, perhaps my earlier comment was not clear.

    There are marriages that are dead. Some rabbonim and professionals can recognize these cases. Neither party wants a true marriage relationship. There are some people that the “institution” of marriage is convenient for them, and we can resort to imagination to guess what some of these might be. Regardless, there is no interest in returning to a relationship of shlaimus, positive emotion and affection, partnership, etc. The request for shalom bayis in these cases has no truth to it, and is exploited for the delay, often extended delay, that this produces. It is an abusive strategy, and in all likelihood continues a dynamic that was central to the relationship and a factor for the desire to terminate it.

    Rabbenu Gershom contributed to some evening of the playing field. Yes, there are cases where a couple should be referred from the beis din to a professional. There are marriages that deteriorated to a “hopeless” state that turned around and had a happy ending. And batei din, understandably, are apt to do that with any situation in which either party requests shalom bayis, even if this is against all odds. I do not have an issue with the batei din. I have an issue with the men or women that use the tactic as part of their abusive pattern. We can call such men “m’agnim” and such women “m’agnos”. Neither are tolerable. And women often lose when they try this because the men can pursue heter meah rabbonim while the women have no such recourse.

    How can you tell when the request for shalom bayis is sincere and when it’s an abusive tactic? Not always easy.

    #1820813

    Milhouse
    Participant

    It makes no difference whether a marriage is “alive” or “dead”. If it is not one of those cases in which Chazal authorized kefiyas get, the husband has no obligation to give one, and if he refuses the wife is not an aguna, she is a moredes. She is married to him, and the Torah demands that she stay married to him unless she can persuade him to let her go. Often this means paying him what he wants, or making the concessions that he is demanding.

    And post-Rabbenu-Gershom the same is true in the other direction; if it is not the equivalent of a case where Chazal authorized kefiyas get the wife has no obligation to accept a get, and if she refuses the husband is a mored, and must give her what she wants in return for her consent to let him go.

    Kefiya is only allowed in those cases where Chazal said so, or that are equivalent to those cases.

    #1820892

    1
    Participant

    I think the trigger happy batei dinim that go out of their scope to force men to give a get, give men anxiety about getting married altogether.

Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.