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WIY -You say you’re not pasuling anyone. Of course you are. Just because you say they are wonderful people doesn’t mean you’re not pasuling them. This is the difference between me and you. You say 99.9% of yidden don’t keep this halacha, although B’shogegg, even though they are wonderful people. I, on the other hand, don’t think everyone does aveiros, just that most people don’t have kavana. You can only comprehend that almost everyone doesn’t keep halacha, but you can’t comprehend that maybe most people don’t have kavana.
Most shuls have rows of table, shtenders or some other object that serves as a hefsek as far as this halacha is concerned. Most people, in most shuls are not davening shmone esrei in the aisles or otherwise in a place where they impede people from walking around. I think the entire premise of this thread is false and motzi shem ra on yidden in shuls everywhere.
100% of shuls? 99% of the kehilla?
Where do you daven? I think I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen someone walk in front of someone davening and still have fingers left over.
I find it quite amusing to watch the 2 or 3 people in my shul zig-zag thru the tables, like mice in a maze, to avoid the “daled amos” buffer zone, yet the rov of our shul (who is by no means a small fry) relies on the 30″ tall / 12″ wide loophole (or perhaps he knows something the 2-3 frummies don’t) but at any rate, it really irks me to see someone out-frum the rov.
Same appiles for those who wash for shalesh seudos during mincha. If shkiya is such an issue to you, find a shul that supports your derech. (I can assure you, BP has several pre-shkiya shuls, so don’t think these guys are without options. Without sechel, perhaps, but not without options)
WIY ???????
Why do you take the seforim you learned as NORMATIVE HALACHA ?
Browse through Sefer Piskei Teshuvos (a great likut, far more than a Phone Book) & you will find ???? ??? ???? on many issues you raised.
WIY -“its possuling everyone and saying that we waste our time 3 times a day.” “if its a fact theres no problem with stating the truth.”
I never said davening is a waste of time -you did.
Since when did your observations become a fact -anymore than this Rov’s idea that people don’t have Kavana? Also, you quote the Chofetz Chaim that they are B’maizid and then you claim that you’re not passuling them??!! At least not having Kavana is B’shogeg!
“if its a fact theres no problem with stating the truth.”
Also, since you mentioned the Chofetz Chaim, I’m sure you remember him saying that – LH is even when it’s true and even on a whole group or population!
WellInformedYid – “Mamer Mordechai: He says the reason for this issur is because you are mevatil his kavanah. This fits well with the view of the Magen Avraham.”
So there are other things that may mevatil someone’s kavanah during the amidah. My pet peeve that disturbs my kavanah is when I’m davining shmoneh esrei and the fellow next to me davins loud enough for me to hear him, or insists on learning aloud while others are davining shmoneh esrei. They want to enhance their kavanah on the backs of others and this is assur.
WIY – Is this last reply of yours’ saying -You’re right, I’m sorry what I wrote about the klal?
100% of shuls and 99% of people. Clearly an exxageration to make a point.
WellInformedYid chalanged me on another thread
you can do it too. I don’t have a monopoly on Zikuy Harabim
So here is something I started and never finnished anybody care/dare to polish it up
and translate?
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WellInformedYid chalanged me on another thread
you can do it too. I don’t have a monopoly on Zikuy Harabim
So here is something I started and never finnished anybody care/dare to polish it up
and translate?
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WellInformedYid You chalanged me on another thread (btw I was not teasing you about the Zikuy Harabim, keep at it.but .. enough said) “you can do it too. I don’t have a monopoly on Zikuy Harabim”
I have two projects that I started, one in LH”K & 1 in yiddish that would fit in nicely with what you started.
I just dont have the time and talent to polish & translate.
May you can figure out a way for me to email it to you like c/o a mod
Another response to WIY’s challenge
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hachnosas-orchim-even-if-you
The Gemara says already that we don’t have Kavana and the Halacha exists nevertheless. But, I have heard numerous Heteirim through the years. There are stories of Gedolim who stayed out of Shul until everyone finished.
There are a few things involved here. Walking in front is Assur because of Kavana. Passing through or sitting, for a non-Mitzva is a problem all around because of the presence of the Shechina. Perhaps the less Kavana someone has, the less you have have to worry about the first part but the second, albeit less Chamur, problem still exists.
There is a concept in other areas of Halacha that you can’t Assur someone else’s property. I’ve heard this applied to our topic, too. In the isles and even near other places, when the person is sort of stepping into others’ territory, he is giving up or can’t Assur his 4 Ammos.
We can always see Medakdekim being careful about this, but it’s hard to give numbers because most people stay by their place throughout the Tefilla.
Also, let us not forget the related issue to this topic –
it is assur to say Shemoneh Esrei behind a door – effectively blocking people form entering/exiting due to the discussed 4 amos rule.
Also, it is Assur to knock over someone Davening, even if you are already passing through. I think we can all agree on that one.
Haleivi -the gemorrah doesn’t say we don’t have Kavana at all. Even nowadays, we might have some Kavana. But the generations get weaker, so maybe the amount of Kavana we have nowadays, is not enough for this Halacha to apply, as opposed to the time of the gemorrah!
Look, that’s a possible distinction, but not the kind that you make up without a Kasha to answer. I think the ball lies in your Rav’s hands.
Just a thought: Although many of us have a hard time keeping a focus on the meaning of the words, we are still aware of who we are praying to and standing in front of. We still want him to listen, and we say at the end, Yihyu Leratzon Imrei Fi. Therefore there is no reason for the Shechina not to be there. In other words, although you stopped thinking about De’ah, Bina and Haskel, you still think about Baruch Ato Hashem.
But do you agree at least not to knock people over?
What if everyone came to shul on time and stayed by their seat the entire davening.
How about feeding animals on Yom Tov and shabbos? Once on pesach we were enjoying a sit in the park, and a young mother comes along with her brood of children and a bag of whatever, matza crumbs? And the start throwing it to the birds for fun.
How about washing netilas yadim and sitting at your place when you put the challa in your mouth, and actually swallowing a kezias or at least a drop before resuming partcipating in talking?
Or in one house the rebbetzin was washing each and every dish that returned to her kitchen after each course, and faithfully replacing them in the cupboard so everything should be in order, after drying with a towel, as well. As well as wiping the counter tops with a shmatta.
WIY -Boy you never give up! You keep repeating your same old argument. I’ll repeat what I wrote before -At a certain level of not proper Kavana, like we have nowadays, this Halacha of not walking in front of them doesn’t apply. Also, at this level, there is no Shechina there. If you want to argue, come up with a reasonable argument.
posted at http://www.asktherabbi.org/status.asp?p=BS8BX683M517CM3
Below was circulated
” I asked your question to asktherabbi.org (excepted) ….. someone and the person said a Rov told him that nowadays its not a problem because people don’t really have Kavana by davening. So the Shechina doesn’t come so its no problem. I want your opinion. Is this a valid Heter or a mistake ……… Thanks Dear : I have no idea. I have never heard that idea before. The Halacha seems to be quite clear and I am not familiar with a source in Halacha that says that a lack of Kavanah means that the Halacha is not applicable. Best regards, Rabbi” See Shut Tzitz Elezer Vol 9 Siman 8, where he uses this Svara as a factor. Also notes in Piske Teshuvos 102, there may be others. I have no access to the other Sefarim, L’Horos Noson etc. cited there
WIY -“The reason I dont give up is because you are distorting Halacha! Im not kidding you, nobody heard of this Heter that you are claiming. Your Rabbi cant make up Heteirim and neither can you just because you dont want to keep Halacha.”
Actually, I find you quite amusing. The Rabbi just says I don’t know and you try to interpret that as a proof that you’re right??!! Talking about distortion!!
Also, how old is your Rabbi? He’s probably younger than me. He’s definitely younger than the poisek I’m talking about, who’s at least in his seventies.
My pet peeve is when I’m davening S’E and the minyan has finished and there is a table in front me and in front of that -is a guy. So here is a guy, who wants to show the world that he won’t walk back into my daled amos even though there is table. So this Tzaddik instead keeps turning around every few seconds to see if I’m done, because he has to get out of there. Even if it wouldn’t be mutter to go back, I’d rather this guy go back anyway; the amount of distraction he does to me is a lot more than if he would go back in my daled amos and then leave. These people are so annoying!
Just a thought:
Is the reason you seem to think it happens all the time, and I’ve rarely seen it because I daven in the Ezras Nashim and women are better at following halacha, or more informed, than men?
http://www.asktherabbi.org/status.asp?p=BS8BX683M517CM3
Follow Up Questions & Answers
October 22, 2010 3:00PM
Submitted by: You (Plony a Anonymous)
This sevora originates with The Meharam Rottengurg cited in Rema 98 and aruch Sasulchan 110 ??? ??”? ??’ ?? ???? ??”? ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??”? ??’ ??- ???”? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?
Question Status Answer Sent
Scholar Rabbi Reuven Lauffer
Date Answered October 23, 2010 12:00AM
Answer Fascinating! Thank you for drawing it to my attention I truly appreciate it. The Teshuvah is full of fascinating concepts and ideas and some very novel approaches!
Here is Rabbi Laufer’s bio
Helath You wanted to know how old this Rabbi is? go to Ask The Rabbi Clck on Bios
Rabbi Reuven Lauffer
Rabbi Reuven Lauffer is a graduate of the Rabbinical Seminary, Jerusalem. He lives in Jerusalem and has taught for fifteen years in Ohr Somayach. He is an Editor and Web Advisor for Ohr Somayach’s popular weekly Torah magazine Ohr Net and has answered tens of thousands of questions for Ask the Rabbi.
Well Informed You ecpected me to translate/transcribe/excerpt a Teshuva? Who has the time and Koach? You ignored my previous referrences. What is really annoying is your attitude of “What I dont know doe nott exist”.
He didn’t ignore it. He wrote that he sees now that there is a Hetter but he will continue to be Makpid Keshuras Haddin. V’tavo Alav Bracha.
As a rule, if you want people to admit to you when you are right, you have to allow them. If they know that you’ll laugh and say, “See? I’m right and you’re wrong!”, they’ll just refrain from admitting. Just as you must be a gracious loser, so to must you be a gracious winner. Ben’fol Oivecha Al Tagil.
October 24, 2010 9:15AM
Submitted by: Plony a Anonymous to http://www.asktherabbi.org/status.asp?P=BS8BX683M517CM3
Please visit theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/some-basic-halacha-that-is-ignored-in-100-of-shuls-by-99-of-the-kahal and you’ll discover a new dimension in ????????, ?????????? ????????????? & ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? “Learn how to say ???? ???? because even that can be misinterpreted”
WellInformedYid ” Health, The reason I don’t give up is because you are distorting Halacha! Im not kidding you, nobody heard of this Heter that you are claiming. Your Rabbi cant make up Hair and neither can you just because you don’t want to keep Halacha. I asked your question to gateways ask the Rabbi and this is what came back”
TO TRYING TO BE HELPFUL
HORAV SHMUEL KAMENETZKY SHLITA TOLD ME THAT IT IS NOT PROPER WHEN HE SAW ME IN THE YESHIVA DOING THIS (WIPING MY GLASSES WITH MY ARBA KANFOS ) ON THE STAIRWAY IN THE YESHIVAyidel1 What did the R”Y tell you? Past nit or Assur?
Was he perhaps referring to one of 2 possibilities
1) pulling out your T”K from under your shirt?
2) running around in the hallways in a T”K only with no shirt?
Somehow I am under the impression that Philly talmidim do not their TKs out
Shouldn’t be Here You should really chill out.
. And what do you call your messages to Health
gentlemanly dialouge
If you can find a link yourself wjy Be ????? ? I actually went down to BMG Minyan to look for it. Now that you have the link to te sefer. perhaps you can share it?
When I wrote You ignored my previous referrences I was referring to
WIY It may hard be hard for you to digest but we do not have Kavanah is not so novel If the psokim as far back as the Rosh’s Rebbe say ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? what would say to our Davening. We gotta do what we gotta do & concentrate but???? ??? ??????? is still a factor in Halacha.I can see a competent Posek use it as a Snif even if it is not the Aruch Hashilchon. You owe Health’s Rav an appology .
Yidel1 have a peek at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/other-uses-for-tallesim and you will see quotes and referrnces you might want to show Rebbe (I dont mean the postings but the actual sefarim)
WIY If you look through my posts you will see that I did not say anything about a general blanket recision of the Halacha. I wrote I can see a competent Posek use it as a “Snif”
I was harping on your seeming obstinance to accept that this could be a factor. Not that the air is cleared can we be Mekayem ??? ??? ????? ?
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