Some boys do better shteiging out of yeshiva WHY?

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  • #1363551

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Please help me with this problem I’ve been wondering about

    #1363997

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    What?

    #1364061

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    One of my friends recently left yeshiva and he learns locally in a shul and he said he’s shteiging more then he did when he was in yeshiva I was wondering why

    #1364082

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Maybe because he is better able to focus in his local shul.

    He may have a closer relationship with the rav at his shul, or have more one-on-one attention.

    He may have less distractions.

    The local shul may be closer to home and more conducive to the other parts of his life.

    He may feel more comfortable at his local shul, which may come with less pressure than learning at his yeshiva.

    Many reasons…

    #1364085

    gavriel613
    Participant

    1) Perceived shteiging and real shteiging aren’t the same thing
    2) If he’s not good socially yeshiva may be uncomfortable, BUT this is a problem he should be getting to grips with it with the appropriate help, not avoiding
    3) Maybe he’s the next Chazon Ish

    ====> can’t really know without more information, suggest you speak to Mashgiach who knows bochur

    #1364083

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Just bc he said so doesn’t make it true.

    #1364125

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    Some, not all people, when given all day to work on something, whatever it is, tend to not be productive with their time. They don’t feel the pressure, they take it easy, they tell themselves they’ll do more later, etc.

    Someone who wants to learn but had limited time, which is usually the case for those who leave yeshiva, if they’re serious about it will maximize their time due to the pressure.

    Similar to how someone with a lot of money will spend more casually than someone with limited funds. It’s human psychology.

    #1364138

    GAON
    Participant

    “learning locally in a Shul” as a full time learner or as part time? We can not properly suggest without detail.
    Perhaps the following may help:
    I once saw an hakdamah by an author who was a Talmud of Yeshivas Volozhin, after they reopened the 2nd time, the Rosh- Yeshivah at the time was Rav Refoel Shapira, he describes the Yeshiva then was made up of lots of bachorim that didn’t want a shiur or any official Seder. Rav Refoel of Volozhin was fluent on any topic under the sun. He claims the students who learned there had much more success than any other Yeshiva, being that they were able to study whatever thier heart desired.

    #1364214

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    Maybe it’s because when he is learning in a shul he feels no pressure.
    (Almost like voluntary)
    Someone told me that his Mashgiach in Yeshiva advised him this (40 years ago) and it worked for him very well.

    #1364221

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Perhaps he was in the wrong Yeshiva.

    #1364881

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Because they get away from their parents

    #1365124

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    My learning skills (and my desire to learn) increased dramatically after I left yeshiva.

    The Wolf

    #1517097

    laskern
    Participant

    It says ืœืขื•ืœื ื™ืœืžื•ื“ ืื“ื ืžื” ืฉืœื‘ื• ื—ืคืฅ a person should learn what his heart desires. In the Yeshiva you are forced to learn whatever they are learning, but outside of the Yeshiva you can learn what you want.

    #1517081

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    I think it comes from the yeshivas pushing the bochurim too hard which leads to burnout

    #1517149

    I think people push their children in mold, or to go to x yeshiva like all their brothers/cousins/friends etc rather than actually find a good fit place.

    Perhaps the yeshiva was just never his type. We all grow in different circumstances.
    It’s really not a crazy question or a surprise.
    Oftentimes we are somewhere we think were doing great but Hashem puts us somewhere else that is unexpected but we preform better in.

    #1517173

    The little I know
    Participant

    Try this on for size:

    ืจื‘ื™ ื—ืœืคืชื ื‘ืŸ ื“ื•ืกื ืื™ืฉ ื›ืคืจ ื—ื ื ื™ื” ืื•ืžืจ, ืขืฉืจื” ืฉื™ื•ืฉื‘ื™ืŸ ื•ืขื•ืกืงื™ืŸ ื‘ืชื•ืจื”, ืฉื›ื™ื ื” ืฉืจื•ื™ื” ื‘ื™ื ื™ื”ื, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืชื”ืœื™ื ืคื‘), ืืœื”ื™ื ื ืฆื‘ ื‘ืขื“ืช ืืœ.
    ื•ืžื ื™ืŸ ืืคื™ืœื• ื—ืžืฉื”, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืขืžื•ืก ื˜), ื•ืื’ื•ื“ืชื• ืขืœ ืืจืฅ ื™ืกื“ื”.
    ื•ืžื ื™ืŸ ืืคื™ืœื• ืฉืœืฉื”, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืชื”ืœื™ื ืคื‘), ื‘ืงืจื‘ ืืœื”ื™ื ื™ืฉืคื•ื˜.
    ื•ืžื ื™ืŸ ืืคื™ืœื• ืฉื ื™ื, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืžืœืื›ื™ ื’), ืื– ื ื“ื‘ืจื• ื™ืจืื™ ื”’ ืื™ืฉ ืืœ ืจืขื”ื• ื•ื™ืงืฉื‘ ื”’ ื•ื™ืฉืžืข ื•ื’ื•’.
    ื•ืžื ื™ืŸ ืืคื™ืœื• ืื—ื“, ืฉื ืืžืจ (ืฉืžื•ืช ื›), ื‘ื›ืœ ื”ืžืงื•ื ืืฉืจ ืื–ื›ื™ืจ ืืช ืฉืžื™ ืื‘ื•ื ืืœื™ืš ื•ื‘ืจื›ืชื™ืš.

    Today’s chinuch system is based on something called convenience. Group as many talmidim into the same place, and create a yeshiva. This was never the derech, and it has severe disadvantages (no, not all bad). A group of 100 talmidim will contain a mixture of different types. It may be convenient for them to all learn the same thing, whether ื‘ืงื™ืื•ืช, ืขื™ื•ืŸ, etc. But that might not be the best fit for every individual. The Mishna at the beginning of Pirkei Avos does not state ืขืฉื• ื™ืฉื™ื‘ื•ืช ื’ื“ื•ืœื•ืช, but rather ื”ืขืžื™ื“ื• ืชืœืžื™ื“ื™ื ื”ืจื‘ื”, with a clear emphasis to implement the standing of talmidim on their own feet. For some, this learning will differ from the standard curriculum that a given yeshiva may offer, but that is the optimal chinuch. In the alter heim, there was a melamed with a maximum of 6-8 talmidim, and there was enough individual attention so that each could learn according to his unique nature. That is no longer cost effective.

    The older talmidim went to where there was a talmid chochom under whose tutelage they could grow. Not a “yeshiva”. Yes, there were yeshivos which grew this way. But the attraction was not the name of a city or institution, but rather the gaon who shared his limudim. If we examine the biographies of the gedolim of the recent generations, we find this pattern. Talmidim of a rebbi, not talmidim of a yeshiva.

    Bottom line is that learning needs to be geshmack, and that type of Limud Hatorah generates the satisfaction and the ืฉืžื—ืช ื”ืœื‘ that we hold so dear. Abolishing yeshivos is unlikely to be useful. But we should be encouraging our yeshivos to guide and assist talmidim to find their niche in Torah and to pursue that. Perhaps not to the exclusion of the “mainstream” learning, but they should be able to shteig and feel that they are shteiging.

    Lastly, there is a wealth of information about this that is found in the Siddur. Review the texts and their explanations of Birchas Hatorah, and of the bracha of Ahava Rabah that we recite before Kriyas Shema. Both are loaded with lessons that we can learn for immense growth.

    #1517308

    laskern
    Participant

    What does shteiging mean? Does he increase his knowledge or his understanding? The Chasam Sofer in Meseches Chulin 7 explains that the Rebbi is required to differentiate cases where the talmid thinks they are similar.

    #1517371

    apushatayid
    Participant

    He is probably “shteiging” at the same pace in and out of yeshiva, the difference is, in yeshiva he is constantly compared to everyone else, while out of it, he is compared to himself.

    #1517802

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    As people here are saying, you don’t really if, and to what extent, this is true. But there is something to say about being your own person, and how this makes you behave more maturely.

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