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jfem – you said “it’s not the government’s fault…” No one said it is. Even a neutral law of general applicability may not force a child to go to school against [the parents’] religious belief.
Zahavasdad – as long as the reason against attending school is a genuine religious belief I see no reason to distinguish jews from the Amish.
None of what I’m saying is justifying the sad situation with the schools. I’m just getting sidetracked with what I believe is the incorrect assumption by rebyidd that the kids are legally required to go to public school (or more specifically “It’s against the law not to be in school.”).
Rebyidd – I don’t know your story. My understanding of constitutional law remains. If there was a school available that didn’t go against your religion it can be argued that your belief, however genuine, was not “religious.”
I would not understand an argument that tried to say that the desire of an orthodox jew to not send their children to a secular public school is not a religious one.
Yoder is still good law. It requires that any law compelling school attendance against the genuine religious wishes of parents must withstand strict scrutiny.
Homeschool.
In New York State, You can only Homeschool if you are a licensend Teacher unlike many other states where the parent can actually be illterate and still home school
“this the comment that the non-conformists like to use.”
This is where uniformists have completely twisted logic and turned it on its ear. Anyone who is different in the slightest is easily cast as a non conformist! As Rav Shteinman is reported to have said (and if he didn’t I still think it is a true comment) it is nothing but Gaava the way most children are rejected by mosdos.
In New York State, You can only Homeschool if you are a licensend Teacher unlike many other states where the parent can actually be illterate and still home school
That’s ok, if you are illiterate and really want to teach, you can just get licensed and teach in public school.
DY
There are 2 points in regards to money. The first is determining who a school accepts based on monetary considerations. I dont think you will find a gadol who believes thats ok.
The second point is the communal obligation to make sure everyone has a school.I don’t know who should pay for it and I do not envy the schools and the financial decisions they have to make. Many of these institutions are unfortunately poorly run from a financial standpoint but fixing that would not fix all the issues. I do believe that it is imperative that people should be aware of the extent of the crisis and that askanim should focus on coming up with solutions. I can guarantee you that Rav Shraga Feivel ztl and Rav Aharon ztl would be horrified with the current state of affairs.
frumnotyeshivish
Your understanding of constitutional law is incorrect, and you should probably be careful not to misinform people. This is a good example of how “a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous”
APY,
Where you inclined to be intellectually honest you would acknowledge that there is a huge difference between not being uniform and being a “non-conformist”. If this weren’t an orthodox group you would say that they are the ones with the multitude of piercings or other such in your face demonstrations. And you are aware of that. And R AYL Shteinman would concur that it is Gaava of these individuals to be do negative about all things Tarahdik and still think that everyone else is at fault. Or perhaps a manifestation of mental illness.
Etidure- care to elaborate? I am not saying that homeschooling is protected I’m saying the government can’t force a frum kid to go to public school.
Do you know of any case in which the government was successful in compelling public school attendance against religious protest? Can you distinguish Yoder in a meaningful way?
“Etidure- care to elaborate? I am not saying that homeschooling is protected I’m saying the government can’t force a frum kid to go to public school.
Do you know of any case in which the government was successful in compelling public school attendance against religious protest? Can you distinguish Yoder in a meaningful way?”
“Universal Jewish education should be a mandate.”
It has been a mandate since Yehoshua ben Gamla Kohein Gadol.
etidure – You should be careful to read decisions entirely. Smith explicitly doesn’t overturn Yoder as there are competing first amendment rights other than free exercise. See Smith at 881 and fn 1. Scalia actually mentions Yoder as one of the benchmark cases which Smith would not apply to. The 9th circuit recently (in ruiz-diaz 703F.3d483) tried saying (in dicta) that Smith overturned Yoder. Thankfully, the 9th circuit’s dicta is far less relevant to the issue than the text of Smith.
I was aware of Smith before I posted. Perhaps you shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
If you would like to discuss further, maybe there is a way to do it outside of this thread? I have written extensively on the topic.
Nisht. Care to elaborate? I have no idea what you are talking about.
And?
Yes, there is a difference. My question to “nisht” to elaborate still stands.
APY,
I don’t think it is difficult to understand at all.
I know, and you know that there are parents who all they do is lambast the school and blame them for everything they ridicule everything the school suggests. They talk derogatorily about the hanhala.
They loudly proclaim their “deios kozvos”
And then they want to know why their children do not have success in school when all they do is fight anything the school is trying to teach. And they wonder why schools do not want to accept their children.
The parents will not show the most basic respect to the principals when they come for interviews. They walk in with demands.
DO you doubt that these parents ambush their children’s success? Who do you think are the real “baalei gaavah?
I don’t doubt that the situation you describe occurs. However that is not the majority. It is certainly not what Rav Shteinman was commenting about. It also dooes not change the fact that that many mosdos vehave moved away from conformity and embraced uniformity, and if you want to play a game of sematics wee can argue they have established their own criterion and determined that everyone must conform to those.. calling it a lack off conform to the uniform behavior they desire.
APY, examples?
Thats not as bad as an American girl being left without a seminary in israel while she was actually in israel. And you could look to the kosher computer thing for secular studies or chabad runs an online homeschool my niece goes to either for limudei kodesh only or as a whole day and even non lubavitch do it.
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