something is really bothering me….
- This topic has 119 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 3 months ago by ItcheSrulik.
February 27, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #745380
There certainly is a difference between lightheaded and drunk.
I am talking about getting drunk. So are the poskim.February 27, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #745381yossi z.Member
and 2February 27, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #745382
do you think this is what Hashem really wants???February 27, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #745383
Yes.February 27, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #745384
The Halacha is to have wine at the seudah period. So before you defend the drunken dopes maybe you can all agree that if you are going to follow your Rav’s shita and get drunk you do it in your own home and crawl into your own bed afterward so you don’t hurt or damage anyone else or their property. AND to take that point even further you teach that to your beloved children as well. If you allow them to get shiker do that under your own supervision in your own home!
I don’t agree with getting drunk under any circumstances especially for underage individuals. But I am not getting pulled into this ridiculous conversation yet again. If you believe it is YOUR duty to get drunk keep it under your own roof and understand that you don’t have a pass to be drinking ALL day and the night before, the mitzvah is ONLY at the seudah.February 27, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #745385
“do you think this is what Hashem really wants?”
Do I think Hashem wants us to follow the halacha? Absolutely.
Does the halacha say to drink? Unarguably.
You do the math.February 27, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #745386
?????? What ??????
The ????? and the poskim call it a ????.
???? means a party where the main event is drinking.February 27, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #745387
“I don’t agree with getting drunk under any circumstances especially for underage individuals.”
Are you aware that the Shulchan Orach disagrees with you?
“the mitzvah is ONLY at the seudah”
True. But a seudah does not have to be “under your own roof”; you can be yotzeh your obligations of having a seudah and drinking anywhere you please.February 27, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #745388
canine and mw13- He wants us to follow halacha but not get sick when doing so.
I’m noticing some people here really dont have a clue and maybe you should speak to a hatzalah member and ask him what goes on on Purim.
Do you know how many kids get alcohol poisioning? It is not an outlet despite what others may think.
all in all:
ITS NOT FUNNY ITS NOT CUTE AND MOST OF ALL ITS STUPID!
oh and while you are teaching your kids to drink, why dont you teach them what it means to have derech eretz for people and peoples belongings because if you can teach them to drink like that, only G-d knows what else you are capable of(and how to mess up your children more.) Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you who have your priorities screwed up. I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be saidFebruary 27, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #745389
PBA call it what you want just have it in your own home. There is no inyan or mitzvah to go wandering through the streets drunk. It doesn’t say in the Gemarah or the SA that you should throw up on your neighbor’s lawn or that you should cause damage to your neighbor’s car when you are drunk!February 27, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #745390
“He wants us to follow halacha but not get sick when doing so.”
Care to source that?
“ITS NOT FUNNY ITS NOT CUTE AND MOST OF ALL ITS STUPID!”
No, it’s not funny and it’s not cute. It is, however, the halacha.
“oh and while you are teaching your kids to drink, why dont you teach them what it means to have derech eretz for people and peoples belongings because if you can teach them to drink like that, only G-d knows what else you are capable of(and how to mess up your children more.)”
Yes… once you start down that dangerous path of following the halacha, there’s no telling what you might do!
“Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you who have your priorities screwed up. I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be said”
Wow. So no keeping the halacha makes your kids go off the D? How’d you manage to get that one?
“priorities screwed up”
My first priority is to follow the halacha, no matter what. I don’t consider that “screwed up” (as you so politely put it) in the least.
However, I’ll tell you what I do consider “screwed up” – people who call themselves frum, but actually try to stop others from keeping the halacha!! Tell me, do you think Hashem wants you to go around trying to convince people not to listen the Shulchan Orach?!?!
Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you who have absolutely no respect for the halacha, and change Yiddishkeit when they don’t like it!! “I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be said.”February 27, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #745391
mw13-first of all watch the way you talk to me.
secondly-im not saying dont follow halacha. the halacha is NOT to get drunk and dont know what is going on around you and to mess up peoples homes. The halacha is ad dlo yodah! go ahead have a drink! but dont intoxicate yourself. tell me something how old are you? are you one of those people who find it cool to drink?
i am not telling people not to keep what the SA says. I am telling you to watch yourself. Dont go crazy or overboard and most of all learn to be responsible.
Why do I need to have a source for the fact that Hashem isnt happy that His children are ending up in hospitals and some even dying bec of alcohol poisioning??February 27, 2011 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #745393simpleobserverMember
p.s it is funny and cuteFebruary 27, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #745395
“watch the way you talk to me.”
All of the ruder statements I made were direct paraphrases from your previous post. What goes around, comes around. And anyways, I have preciously little respect for those openly advocating against the Shulchan Orach.
“im not saying dont follow halacha. the halacha is NOT to get drunk”
Wrong. The halacha is absolutely to get drunk. And if you are telling people not to get drunk, you are telling people to ignore the halacha. Sorry, no two ways about it.
“The halacha is ad dlo yodah! go ahead have a drink! but dont intoxicate yourself.”
Tell me, what exactly do the words “ad di’lo yodah” mena? It means drink until you have no idea what’s happening. Sounds like getting intoxicated to me.
“tell me something how old are you? are you one of those people who find it cool to drink?”
What difference does it make? This halacha applies to every jewish male over the age of 13, whether they think it’s “cool” or whether they think it’s nauseating. We must follow the halacha. Period.February 27, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #745396
Ad dlo yoda means becoming stone drunk.February 27, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #745397hanibParticipant
it can be done nicely, with men getting drunk and very leibedick. it can be very nice. teenage boys getting sick and throwing up is not drinking the way one should on purim – that’s disgusting and scary to be around them and it’s dangerousFebruary 27, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #745398real-briskerMember
yogiboo – THiS is how they are mechanech their kids. Just because you would do different doesnt mean that they are not being mechanech their kids. Now why does it bother you how someone else is MECHANECH thier kids?February 27, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #745399
real-brisker: it only bothers me in the sense when they allow their kids to drink and have no limits.
Binah is right. men canget drunk in a responsible way. the men that are driving around with the bottle of wine while hanging out the window trying to show how “cool” he is, are dumb.
kids doing it to show how cool they are, are really not. They can have a drink with their fathers, but why get drunk? so what if they are over bar mitzvah, what does that prove?
You know what, to those people who think they have to get “stone drunk,” do it! end up in the hospital and then I hope you regret it. I really hope you do.
mw13-“what goes around comes around?”
what the blazes is that supposed to mean? i was NEVER directing anything at you from the very beginning. only you started that. i was just saying that people need to be more careful and that its disgusting what does go on! if you have a problem with that then im sorry for you!
edited (blazes)February 27, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #745400
mods-please close because some people are really ignorant!
ignorance is not so bad. educate them. (Also, I am among the “ignorant” on this.)February 27, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #745401
Ad dlo yadah DOES NOT MEAN getting stone drunk. If that is your interpretation then it is just an excuse for you to get stone drunk.February 27, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #745402
I’m not sure what your definition of “ad dlo yado” is, but it is apparently drunk enough that an amorah would cut off another amorah’s head.
I have never even gotten close to that, but I try every year.February 27, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #745403
lol modFebruary 27, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #745405
cb1 -Music Producer
“just for your information the bochur who died last purim did not die from too much alcohol rather from an aneurysm”
I find your comments unbelievable. First of all, how do you know who I’m talking about? Second of all, even if it’s the same guy, I heard this from my Rov who is good friends with the uncle. Why should I believe an anonymous blogger over my Rov? Third of all, how do you know the guy died from an aneurysm -did you speak to the doc who saw the CT scan?
Since you posted based on a lot of Your assumptions, I Assume you have some sort of agenda! Care to Share what it is?
editedFebruary 27, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #745406observanteenMember
My father is a great Talmid Chacham (Rosh Kollel), and he certainly does what the Shulchan Oruch says. He used to get drunk every Purim, and I mean REAL drunk. It was nausiating and even frightening. I used to have nightmares about this,and actually developed some kind of a phobia. For my sake, he stopped drinking. Now, THIS is what I call a mitzva! Purim is supposed to be a happy Yom Tov, NOT a sad one. And if it made me sad, he stopped. I think ur allowed to get drunk, but, PLEASE don’t get “Stone Drunk”. Your wife/kids have a heart too! Don’t make it hard on them. And if your wife begs you not to get drunk, then, I don’t think you’re oiver on the Shulchan Oruch. If you davka want to be yoitze, take a nap.
A Freileche Purim to all of you!!!February 27, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #745407Pashuteh YidMember
First, the words livsumi means to exude a nice fragrance, meaning to be a bit happier. Where do you see the words completely smashed in the gemara? Second, the gemara right afterward says that one amora got drunk and stabbed another amora. The next year they discontinued the practice, since it could be pikuach nefesh.
So any possibility of pikuach nefesh means we shouldn’t drink. Bezman hazeh, we are told by big Rabbonim that many get into trouble, so obviously there is no chiyuv. If one can be yotzei according to the Rama with a bit of extra wine and a nap, who is it who takes it upon himself to be frummer than the Rama.
Especially when it leads to all kinds of chilulei hashem and nezek. It is purely the yetzer hara that imagines it is a mitzvah to drink to that extent. Believe me, if anybody is afraid of getting punished by the RBSH for not drinking, I will personally vouch for them upstairs.
It is amazing what the yetzer hara will do and how it will twist an aveira into a mitzvah.February 27, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #745408
It seems he did drink again the next year, since if he had stopped drinking, there would be no reason for him not to come and share the seuda again. (I can’t imagine he stopped having a seuda.)
I assume they were just afraid to have the seuda together. I also never make my seuda with any amoraim.February 27, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #745409
Ad dlo yoda means becoming stone drunk.
If that’s the case (and I don’t believe it is) then I am glad to have never fulfilled this din… and I never anticipate doing so.
Feel free to call me a sinner if you feel you must.
The WolfFebruary 27, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #745410
The OBLIGATION to drink starts at age 13.
And the obligation is ad dlo yoda.
Ad dlo yoda means becoming stone drunk.
So, it’s your contention then, that every male over Bar Mitzvah is required to get stone drunk on Purim?
The WolfFebruary 27, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #745411
PBA – You make light of his post -by doing so you cause others to think he isn’t making any point. Whether his or your interpretation of that Gemorrah is correct -is irrelevant. His point is very true -if your drinking can come to a Sakanah, you don’t have that right to follow the D’Rabbon Chiuv of getting drunk. Now there are a lot of people including teenagers who won’t put themselves in Sakanah, but there are a lot that will nowadays. Every parent has to make sure that no kid will drink to that point. Some kids are responsble on their own not to drink that much. But a lot of kids need someone to watch them -not to get there. It could be the parents, members of the Hanhala of the kid’s yeshiva or other responsible adults. The problem isn’t with drinking on Purim, the problem is we don’t have a lot of responsible adults and children!February 27, 2011 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #745412
“They can have a drink with their fathers, but why get drunk?”
For the umpteenth time, because the Shulchan Orach says to! Which part of this am I not making clear?
“i was NEVER directing anything at you from the very beginning”
“MW13… what shyichus is that??!?!! that made no sense.”
“canine and mw13… I’m noticing some people here really dont have a clue”
“oh and while you are teaching your kids to drink, why dont you teach them what it means to have derech eretz for people and peoples belongings because if you can teach them to drink like that, only G-d knows what else you are capable of(and how to mess up your children more.) Now I see why so many kids are OTD, because of parents like you (remember, this post began with “canine and mw13 -“) who have your priorities screwed up. I’m sorry to put it bluntly but it needs to be said”
And, in that very same post:
“im sorry for you!”
Aw, I’m so touched.
“Ad dlo yadah DOES NOT MEAN getting stone drunk.”
Again, ad di’lo yadah translates as drink “until [you] don’t know” even who Haman or Mordechai is. If that isn’t stone drunk, what is?February 27, 2011 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #745413
Yes, I think there should be responsible supervision of teens (and adults). Especially kids should not be let to disappear for hours with no supervision of what they are drinking. The best is for them to be at your seuda where you can keep track of their drinking and cut them off, or by their rebbe’s house (if he is responsible).
But I don’t see that as being the argument advanced here. I see people arguing that the entire mitzva is inappropriate to the extent it means drunkenness.
In my yeshiva, they used to make sure that every highly intoxicated person had someone watching them, and a garbage can.February 27, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #745414MDGParticipant
There is nothing worse than drunkenness, and the Shulhan Aruch agrees with that. Actually it’s in the Beit Yosef (O”C 695 – same author as the Shulhan Aruch) that says that there is no sin worse than drunkenness and it’s completely forbidden to get drunk. The B”Y says that “Livsumei” does not mean drunk, but to drink a little more than usual.
You can’t interpret the Shulchan Aruch any better than what the author himself explains.February 27, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #745415MDGParticipant
What happened in you yeshiva does not seem to happen now. Furthermore, many kids are in fact roaming around drunk. Reality changed, now we have to deal with it.February 27, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #745416
i was talking about the OP. mw13- i will stop talking to you!
editedFebruary 27, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #745417
PBA -“But I don’t see that as being the argument advanced here. I see people arguing that the entire mitzva is inappropriate to the extent it means drunkenness.”
I don’t agree with them, but I also don’t agree with people who hold it’s a Hefker Velt. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I’ve seen over the years many parents just throw in the towel and don’t know or care what goes on with their kids. If their kid is away in Yeshiva, they just assume someone is responsible for them. A lot of yeshivos- noone, not even Rebbeyim take responsibility for the bochurim. Parents must find out beforehand.
This could be the reason a lot of people are against getting drunk nowadays.February 27, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #745418
MDG – the Shulchan Aruch says to get drunk on purim.February 27, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #745419
“There is nothing worse than drunkenness, and the Shulhan Aruch agrees with that. Actually it’s in the Beit Yosef (O”C 695 – same author as the Shulhan Aruch) that says that there is no sin worse than drunkenness and it’s completely forbidden to get drunk. The B”Y says that “Livsumei” does not mean drunk, but to drink a little more than usual.”
I would bet that the Beis Yosef also says somewhere that killing people is not a great idea; does this mean we are not commanded to kill Amalek? Everything must be taken in it’s proper context. I would assume that the Beis Yosef holds that in general getting drunk is a problem, but on Purim it is an obligation.
“i was talking about the OP.”
Well forgive me for assuming that a comment that was addressed to me (“MW13 -“, “canine and mw13 -“) was, well, addressed to me.
edited. Please, both of you, lets tone this down and not be personal.February 27, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #745420jewish sourceParticipant
THE OILAM IS DRUNK ALREADY GREAT PURIM TORAHFebruary 27, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #745423
I’m still waiting for you to answer my question above. Is it your contention (based on the quotes I presented) that all males over Bar Mitzvah are required to get stone drunk on Purim?
The WolfFebruary 27, 2011 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #745424real-briskerMember
yogoiboo – I DON’T understand you. This is how they are mechanech their kids, AND I AM SURE they hold that they are doing a fine job. Who asked you to mish arieyn??February 27, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #745425Shmuel LondonParticipant
This discussion is surreal. First time consumers have died from alcohol poisoning as high alcohol content in the blood suppresses breathing. I have been last year with a badly drunk 14 year old who had to be rushed to ER because of shallow breathing. Sorry if there is any chashash that youngsters cannot handle alcohol than the Halocho forbids getting drunk. No questions , you ask any Rov.February 27, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #745426
Wolf – Yes.
Now I understand there are some minority opinions that hold otherwise. And I fully support their adherents from following their opinion. Nevertheless, we ask for the same respect.February 27, 2011 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #745428
MW13, if you don’t know the difference of drinking a “little” more than you normally do to make you sleepy so you are ad dlo yado and getting “stone drunk” then neither I nor anyone else here can teach you. YOU are not willing to learn.February 27, 2011 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #745429
Now I understand there are some minority opinions that hold otherwise. And I fully support their adherents from following their opinion. Nevertheless, we ask for the same respect.
Fair enough, but I’ve got to tell you, I find it *very hard* to believe that any sane and responsible rav would say that it’s absolutely required for a thirteen year old to get stone drunk on Purim (or any other day of the year).
The WolfFebruary 27, 2011 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #745430
believe that any sane and responsible rav
So you appreciate that we respect your religious opinion, and that is the kind of respect we get back?? You question the sanity and responsibility of our rabbonim shlit”a.
C’mon Wolf, you can do better than that.February 27, 2011 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #745431
OK, canine, can you provide me with the name and contact information of a single rav in the US who so advises and requires? I’d like to ask them myself.
The WolfFebruary 27, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #745432
As soon as you provide the name and contact information of your rov, I will call him and give him that exact info you request.February 27, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #745433
You question the sanity and responsibility of our rabbonim shlit”a.
Oh, and for the record, I’m not questioning the responsibility and sanity of your rabbonim. I’m questioning whether such rabbonim (that make such requirements for thirteen years old) even exist.
If you can show me that I’m wrong, I will be more than glad to retract.
The WolfFebruary 27, 2011 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #745434
As soon as you provide the name and contact information of your rov, I will call him and give him that exact info you request.
That’s a cop-out. Why does my rav have to call the rav who paskens this way? Why can’t I call him myself?
I’m beginning to seriously doubt whether any rav in the US actually paskins that a 13 year old must get stone drunk on Purim.
The WolfFebruary 28, 2011 12:00 am at 12:00 am #745435
You want me to post my rov (who so paskens)? It can only happen PRIVATELY to your rov. There is a whole ‘nother thread with the consensus being it inappropriate to ask for a rov’s name.
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