October 7, 2020 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1907842yumbumdeedumParticipant
were you ever spanked as a child wgat effect did it have on youOctober 8, 2020 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #19081451Participant
Every child gets. Sometimes it’s deserved; most times it only works short term.October 8, 2020 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1908169besod emunaParticipant
I was. It caused me to stop doing bad behavior and start acting goodOctober 8, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1908186Reb EliezerParticipant
It should be done from love and not hate then it will bear fruits. כי כאשר ייסר איש את בנו ה’ אלקיך מיסרך the way a man admonishes his child Hashem your G-d admonishes you.October 8, 2020 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1908185Tachles1Participant
Yeshiva.co has a short write up about this with halachic sources:
It is my understanding that many Torah authorities urge parents to refrain from this Spanking ones children.
If it is permitted currently, are boy children, to be treated differently than girl children? If yes, why? If no, why not?
Any good works available on this subject?
There is no blanket halachic prohibition against spanking one’s children for educational reasons (Rashi Masechet Makkot 8a; Shulchan Aruch HaRav Hilchot Nizkei Guf VaNefesh, article 4). The Vilna Gaon (commentary on Proverbs 19 18-19) writes that one should not spank his children when he is very angry so as not to punish them more than is necessary to achieve an educational purpose. The halacha forbids cruelty and requires that only a minimum amount of force, if and when necesssary, be used (see Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 245 10 and Pitchei Teshuva Choshen Mishpat 424 4).
The link is: https://www.yeshiva. co/ask/737
I understand that the mods might remove the link, but I wanted to properly give credit.
Disabled but not removed 😊October 8, 2020 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1908196Shmili_OOngarParticipant
Spanking is better for the child than yelling at them. If you spank a kid, he will feel bad and realize they did something wrong, and then you can comfort them and say you love them, and they will see that. If you yell at a child and make them feel terrible, even if you console them after, they will still feel terribleOctober 12, 2020 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1908914
yesOctober 12, 2020 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1908948
I agree totaly with Shmily O OngarOctober 12, 2020 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1908953
I was spanked at home only a handful of times, but one of them is realy memorable and had a big good effect on my behavior for years. I was close to 9 years old when i got 5 or 6 hard smacks on my backside on the bare skin, it took only a few seconds and i was realy crying. I just wonder if this method is appropriate according to tznius and derech hatora, all i can tell you it is very effective and safe. My question limited only to parents spanking their own kids.October 12, 2020 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1908980takahmamashParticipant
I was never spanked, as far as I remember. My kids were never spanked. B”H, we all turned out OK despite lacking this apparently essential part of life.October 13, 2020 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1909264Sam KleinParticipant
Some people get their malkes in this world and some other wait until the olam haemes until they get it R”L
let’s pray that each person is finished with his punishment COMPLETELY before s/he is removed from this temporary physical world and brought up to the true world so they don’t have to C”V go through any additional punishment.
May we all stay away from sin altogether and avoid punishment in the first place to begin with.October 13, 2020 7:24 am at 7:24 am #1909297CTLAWYERParticipant
Always so sure, always so wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“EVERY CHILD GETS…………………”
You have no universal knowledge and post a lie.
My parents never once spanked their children, Mrs. CTL and I have never spanked our children, and to the best of our knowledge, our children have NEVER spanked our grandchildren.October 13, 2020 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1909371GadolhadorahParticipant
Before you physically strike a child, step back and talk to your rav or a frum professional you trust as to why you feel such a need. There are multiple peer reviewed studies showing that those who “spank” their children were themselves abused as children. דאָס עפּעלע פֿאַלט ניט װײַט פֿון בײמעלעOctober 13, 2020 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1909422catch yourselfParticipant
I was spanked as a child. I don’t think it made much difference in how I turned out. It certainly did not fix the immediate problem my father wanted to stop.
My wife and I do not hit our children.
It is not better to hit than to yell. Both are wrong and ineffective, with very few exceptions.
It is better to allow children to suffer the consequences of their poor decisions. I do not mean to mislabel punishments as “consequences”. If a child makes a mess, s/he should have to clean it up. A child should know that if s/he doesn’t do what is expected, s/he won’t be able to do what s/he wants to do (play with friends, go on trips, etc.). Parents should express empathy while their children deal with these problems, but they should not “rescue” them.
Suppose that Chaim disregards his father’s instructions to wear a coat, and now Chaim is uncomfortable. Chaim’s father could [sincerely] say something like, “Oy, Chaim, I feel so bad that you’re cold. I’m also cold when I don’t bring my coat.” Dad should not buy him a new coat, or go back home to get his coat for him. Odds are that next time, Chaim will wear his coat.
This will work much better than spanking Chaim yelling at him, both of which will stop him from learning the real lesson he should learn, and instead provide him a scapegoat for his discomfort.October 13, 2020 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1909536RR44Participant
When my older brothers were in school [1970s and 80s children were spanked on their bottoms – often for very little reason.
When i was a kid they decided to bring a new guy who thought he understood chinuch so he cut down a bit on the spanking and instead invented a whole bunch of different torture including making children walk round the block without shoes, spenidng time stuck under tables, or sitting without a chair – or any combination.
At any rate i 100% sure that i came way better than my brothers – so you can draw your own conclusions….October 13, 2020 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1909559mashgiach101Participant
i have two neighbors one potches and one doesnt … potching worksOctober 14, 2020 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1909777
This whole concept of consquences instead of punishment is a comes from the modern world where not punish children has become a religion. when you tell a child to put on a coat and he doesn’t he might learn from consquences to put on a coat nextime. However he did not learn to listen to his parents for the sake of it, our goal is not to make him put on a coat for life, it is rather teaching him to obey parents as kibud av vaem, and thats not achieved by qonsquences.October 14, 2020 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1909988
I had a rebbe in kittah hay who use to spank hard on the tush, one day a boy wore corduroy pants and found out that the petch does not hurt if your wear corduroy, the stores sold out of corduroy pant in days.October 14, 2020 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1910034Chaim ShulemParticipant
I was spanked all the time. Very hard. Usually my parents did it out of complete anger. It totally made me a better person. Kids these days are weak crybabies.October 14, 2020 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1910178jkotl0327Participant
You are providing a trivial example. You should not spank for that, but what if a kind commits a cheit gadol? The kind strikes the momeh for example. Then the only choice is to spank.October 15, 2020 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1910050
To Common Shaichel: You and your friends had more mazel then shaichel – what if the rebbe would notice that the petch does not hurt anymore and decide to just take down the pants before spanking ? then it would have hurt tripleOctober 15, 2020 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1910300RR44Participant
If a child does a chait godoil stick to the shoe confiscation idea.
At least it does not serve as a way for the rebbe to release his kaas.
Or better try suspension….October 15, 2020 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1910374
the boy with the pants was wailing the whole time that the rebbe should not notice, he told us at lunchOctober 19, 2020 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1911508
There is nothing more effective then petsh, and because it is so effective if it is given to often it loses the whole effectiveness.., so by a chet gadol there should be a good potching and by smaller things it can be suspension (or shoe confiscation if you like so much that idea..)October 19, 2020 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1911524flowersParticipant
A parent should always evaluate if they are spanking their child out of anger or yelling excessively at their child (and ends up feeling bad after, because they realize they were wrong) should go for help before everlasting damage is done to their child. It doesn’t mean the parent is bad, rather it may be because of abuse in their own upbringing, their own shame, or their current circumstances that are causing them to be stressed or overwhelmed.
The child should not have to suffer. Go for help. You won’t regret it. If you don’t go for help, you may regret it big time.October 19, 2020 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1911561
Most of these discussions are silly. What worked for one parent or rebbe might not work for another. There are also halachos here, some of which were recorded in prior comments. Additionally, there are hadrachos from our contemporary gedolim that are useful. It is easy to generalize from one situation to another, to create rules from certain experiences, to use specific instances to conclude a self-made halacha. These are all follies, and שומר נפשו ירחק מהם. None of us were trained in parenting before having children, and it is the exceptional rebbe who received training in such matters before being hired to teach in a classroom.
Petch is not intended to cause pain, as is clear in the gemora. It is to make a point in action that failed to transmit in words. In a wide variety of seforim on the halachos of chinuch, relevant to parents and mechanchim, there is a wealth of wisdom from Gedolei Yisroel throughout the generations. It is clear that the potch that punishes is not the one that teaches. That is clearly outside of the potch that is muttar in halacha. The first potch, under a list of conditions may be permitted (not necessarily recommended). The second one is a physical assault, and is a violation of Torah Law.
There are many more aspects to this that provide fodder for lively discussion. I have no problem with anyone attacking what I wrote. I did not contrive anything. Everything came directly from our Torah giants. If anyone wishes to move this thread into a debate, I respectfully ask that one provide direct references from the seforim of halacha. If we go there, I will share direct quotes supporting every word I wrote.October 19, 2020 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1911592yytzParticipant
I was only spanked once or twice and I don’t think it affected me.
But that was then. This is now.
Many rabbis have said human nature has changed and spanking no longer works in improving behavior. Instead, it just makes them worse.
This is supported by modern psychology; a number of studies show spanking makes children more aggressive, violent and angry over the long term.
It may seem absurd for the Israeli government (I think it was a court decision) to ban spanking.
But Rav Shalom Arush explains that since spanking is no longer effective, Hashem arranged for it to be illegal to take this method of discipline away from us.October 29, 2020 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1914825
I think that it is nonsense to say that human nature changed and spanking no more effective, all modern studies are based on a wanted outcome and not on facts. Also i believe that the torah is nitschi and a passuk from shlomo hamelech is not just changed because modern day psychology, as our emuna in chidus haolam is not effected by modern day scienceOctober 29, 2020 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #1914890se2015Participant
Why stop at children? When a spouse or even a total stranger needs to be taught a lesson, a good old fashioned spanking is the way to go.
Seriously, if you’re at the spanking juncture, you took a wrong turn 3 or more steps earlier. Spanking is lazy, shows a lack of imagination, lack of foresight, lack of control. If done as a policy rather than in a moment of parental frustration and exasperation, then it also shows a lack of commitment to actually teaching the child in a constructive way.November 3, 2020 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1916337
On my question (for those who believe in some corporal punishment) if it is appropriate to spank on a child’s behind i did not get any answerNovember 3, 2020 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1916383
The use of corporal punishment is limited, and for a good reason. Punishment does not teach. It inhibits. The latter is occasionally required in a chinuch (school and parent) setting. Mostly, the goal is to teach. And spanking fails to accomplish that. Just associating a negative experience with a behavior does not convey the knowledge that a child truly needs.
What is appropriate? First identify the goal. Controlling behavior or teaching. I would hope that the scientist in the lab recognizes the task of controlling behavior, accomplished by reward and punishment. The learning of children, aka little humans, should not be reduced to that of lab animal, and we should set the goal to teach. Now, will spanking help achieve that goal? I just did the Jewish thing of answering one question with another. Why? Why not?November 3, 2020 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1916401
The little i know:
You did not understand my question. I will also not disagree now about the limited use of corporal punishment, as i think it is needed but only rarely, as i wrote in one of my earlier posts. My question was about those times when it is indeed needed if it is appropiate to spank a child on that particular part of the body where you sit on, according with tznius etc.November 3, 2020 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1916413
@johnklets my rebbe in cheder use to do that all the time. I think he enjoyed it, but then again they were less selective who they took.November 3, 2020 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1916479
The idea of spanking on the bottom, I believe, was based on the assumption that one can inflict pain without injury. I also believe that this was not done with exposing raw skin. I am aware of situations in which the intensity and amount of petch given was enough to cause serious pain of long duration. And I know of one instance that the rebbe who did that was terminated immediately and banned from chinuch for life. Yes, the powers that be kept track of his efforts to be rehired elsewhere and insured it would not happen.November 3, 2020 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1916539
To Common shaichel and The little i know:
I know this was done out of safety, it is the most safe place to spank. For little kids it was normal to get on the bottom over the pants both at home and in cheder, and in some homes and cheders even bigger kids. Regarding spanking on the raw skin i got once spanked like this at home as i mentioned before and it was very very effective and it is safe. I am sure that it is not acceptable for a melamed to spank a child on bare, but my question was if it is appropriate for parents. I think in the goyishe world where spanking is permitted they do it lecatchila on the bare.November 5, 2020 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1917272opinionated-2Participant
Common Saychel – it sounds like you had a terrible experience in cheder. Unless its normal. I wouldnt know. Being a girl.
Johnklets – NO IT IS NOT OK AT ALL. Who gave your parents the right to touch you in a private place?
Not tznius at all nor appropriate. Definitely lacking boundaries.
Then again, I don’t have kids of my own yet so I wouldn’t necessarily be the person to ask.
My parents did actually hit me a few times, but they were narcissistic immature people so everything they did in the name of discipline was better named as “you’re insulting my ego right now so I need to do anything I can to put you in your place as soon as possible” .
And besides for some pent-up rage that I still have they accomplished ZERO. If anything they only did the opposite of what good discipline would do for someone. And I’m not only referring to the smacks which they didn’t really do too often. But enough about that….back to your question.
A few times my mother hit me on my backside, but never without clothes.
I do know a family where one of the parents did that, and all the kids have issues.
It’s so degrading and lacks decency.
I suggest you go for therapy to talk about this.
However you should realize that most probably your parents were just copying what their parents did to them as a child, or something like that.
They probably didn’t realize the harm they were doing.
So don’t go being mad at them, but you should be aware that it was not ok at all.
Is it ok to potch in a non-degrading fashion? I’m not sure. It’s very complicated.
On the flip side you really don’t want to raise entitled kids. There are too many of them nowadays.
Maybe the answer is to first make sure you really have a strong very loving very warm relationship with the kids where they know 100% that you only want what’s best for them, then you can give them a small potch when they’re out of line (sparingly)
You definitely don’t want them to think they can get away with anything.
I have a friend like that, she is very entitled. Her mother is afraid to ever tell her what to do but now this girl mamesh has no boundaries at all. She will totally lie to people or manipulate them to get what she wants….. she doesn’t have a sense of responsibility or right and wrong….very selfish person. I know another person like that too who definitely has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Her parents are afraid of her so she never got any kind of mussar or discipline or anything. They still hold of her until today and pump up her ego…meanwhile she doing all kinds of things against halacha and against basic human decency but they will never say a thing to her….. If she would have gotten a few petch maybe she would be different.!!
It’s very hard and complicated, no one said Tzaar Gidul Banim was easyNovember 8, 2020 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1917871Shmili_OOngarParticipant
opinionated 2- I don’t think it was even a hava Aminah of anyone in this discussion to spank without clothes on. The point of patching is not to be an inappropriate gesture, rather it is to instill a feeling of “what I did was wrong and I should not do it again” in the kid. Obviously, there are boundaries and after one spanks a child, they should speak to them lovingly and explain why they did it.November 8, 2020 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1917903opinionated-2Participant
Yes there was johnklets asked a question about smacking underneath clothes and I answered himNovember 9, 2020 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1918149
To opiniated 2
Thank for you detailed reply, in most points i do not disagree with you. Myself i think too that spanking should be only with pants on, mainly because it’s a big hashpala for the child otherwise. But no, i do not need to go for help, my parents were very good and to us and the number of times i got smacks is only about 5-6 times at all and all besides the one i mentioned were light and moderate on the hand or on the pants. Those rare cases of potching was only for chinuch and not for their ego chas v’shalom. As you also mentiond potching should be an option but done rarely, and then it is very effective.December 23, 2020 7:39 am at 7:39 am #1931244amentchParticipant
Are there any current poskim or chinuch experts who advocate potching in our time and day?
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