November 6, 2018 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1617988
How do they now it’s due to the spanking and not due to violence on TV or in the street
They sparked 100 years ago and those people didn’t turn out violent
I’m not saying I agree with spanking, don’t get me wrong I’m just saying how do they know for sure what they’re saying is trueNovember 6, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1618185
How do you know those people didn’t turn out violent? 100 years ago was November 1918, the end of WW1. WW1 was one of the bloodiest wars in all of history. Additionally, on the aggregate violence, crime, and anarchy have fallen consistently over time. We live in modern times in the least violent and least dangerous society ever.
In any case you accuse the study of not taking into various factors into account while yourself suggesting a thesis not based on any statistics.November 6, 2018 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1618230
Are you saying that the gaonim tannaim and amaroaim who spanked their kids had their kids turn out violent?
I understand that there is a way it should be done, with love and respect but it’s not the spanking it’s the way it’s doneNovember 6, 2018 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1618238
Putting kids in timeout can be abusive.November 6, 2018 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1618276
Children learn and it encourages them to behave roughly to others. Timeout is a better idea. At a later age praise them for the positive they do.November 6, 2018 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1618291
Laskern, you don’t want children putting people in timeout either.November 12, 2018 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1621780
Putting kids in timeout encourages apathy hitting kids teaches them to hit not punishing them makes them overly indulgeNovember 12, 2018 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1621786
Rav Moshe zt’l says that raising children is half perspiration and half inspiration. You put your effort into it and then pray that it should bear fruits.November 12, 2018 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1621793
Physical assault of another person so as to inflict pain as a “motivational” or “behavioral” outcome is still assault and likely to put you in jail or risk having your children taken away from you in certain jurisdictions. Its not clear where the line between a mild spanking and assault is crossed but why take the risk when most pediatric psychologists (frum or otherwise) say it rarely if ever has the desired outcome and is more likely to cause long-term dysfunctional behavior.November 12, 2018 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1621798
In any case you accuse the study of not taking into various factors into account while yourself suggesting a thesis not based on any statistics.
That’s fine; he didn’t draw any conclusions. The “study” did.November 13, 2018 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1621805
Stop spewing nonsense. There’s obviously a difference between spanking and abuse, any pinhead knows the difference.
The reality is that the US Supreme Court ruled that Public Schools can engage in corporal punishment, parents can definitely do their job and spank their kids once in awhile.
According to your silly logic, there’s virtually no difference between dieting and becoming anorexic, so let’s ban dieting.November 13, 2018 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1621809
Spanking is physical abuse
Yelling is verbal abuse
Time out is emotional abuse
IGNORING YOUR KID’S WRONGDOINGS IS SOCIETAL ABUSENovember 13, 2018 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1622139
Avram in MDParticipant
“Are you saying that the gaonim tannaim and amaroaim who spanked their kids had their kids turn out violent?”
There is a world of difference between “100 years ago” per your OP and the way chazal lived and did things. They are not interchangeable. Don’t look at the early 20th Century or the 1950s as some sort of gold standard.
“I understand that there is a way it should be done, with love and respect but it’s not the spanking it’s the way it’s done”
The problem is, there is almost nobody on this planet who will spank a child for the “right reasons” and in the “right way.” Spanking is almost always the last resort of impatience and frustration with a child, because it yields the “results” of submission and obedience quite effectively. The problem is, while the parent wins the short game, in the long run, submission and obedience aren’t the true results we seek. It’s proper chinuch that we want, and spanking is more often a short circuit than a shortcut to that end. A child spanked by a rageful or frustrated parent, or one embarrassed by his child’s behavior in public, will submit, will cry, and may even apologize for his behavior when that is demanded of him, but he won’t be feeling regret over his actions and a desire to do better. He will be feeling rage towards the parent, or his own humiliation and embarrassment over the spanking, not the behavior.November 13, 2018 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1622143
Avram in MDParticipant
“Spanking is physical abuse
Yelling is verbal abuse
Time out is emotional abuse
IGNORING YOUR KID’S WRONGDOINGS IS SOCIETAL ABUSE”
Is there really nothing in between spanking and yelling and ignoring a kid’s wrongdoing?November 13, 2018 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1622156
The Chidushei Harim says that the snake was cursed,even though dust is readily available, Hashem said told him, here is your food and don’t bother me.
If father hates his child, he ignores him. שבטך ומשענתך המה ינחמוני the fact Hashem uses his stick or provides crutches console me that He is concerned about me and has not forsaken me.November 20, 2018 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1626841
A couple of things. First, my wife and I do not spank our kids or use physical punishment of any kind. Most mechanchim I’ve spoken with are very much against it for today’s dor.
My father did spank me, though not too frequently (maybe a handful). IMO, it hurt my relationship with my father for a long time, though I only realized that as an adult. I know he meant well and it wasn’t anything near what I would consider abusive, but I think it distanced us from each other a lot. Having said that, I think it does depend very much on how it’s done (the manner in which it’s done, until what age, etc). I was threatened with it as late as about 12, but I think he last did it when I was 10ish, which is probably too old no matter what.
So to sum up, I think it’s possible to spank your child in a productive way, but it’s very hard, and IMO not worth the chance of messing things up these days. Also, I think anyone besides a parent doing it is off the table completely. No way a non-parent these days can build up a healthy relationship with a kid and show love in such a way that makes physical punishment a clear act of tough love.November 21, 2018 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1628238
I didn’t have a chance to go through the whole thread yesterday, but I just noticed your post, and I find it a bit unsettling, mostly because I think you’re not the only one who thinks this way. So help me understand your position.
You wrote “parents can definitely do their job and spank their kids once in awhile.”
Do you mean that it is the job of parents to spank their children? That they are not doing their job if they don’t spank their children? I find it hard to believe that people seriously can think this. By that reasoning, must you hit in a certain way also? With a specific type of device? On the hands? Backside? Is there a certain frequency with which you have to hit your children? Like if you think it’s mandatory, then which parts are mandatory? Does it depend on the nature of the child or on the parent at all?
Again, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not some liberal who thinks you have to let kids control everything. And my father hit me, but I decided along with my wife not to do it with my children.
BTW, you also said “The reality is that the US Supreme Court ruled that Public Schools can engage in corporal punishment.” Whatever you think of parents hitting, do you really think it’s a good idea for schools to? Forget the law for a second. I mean do you think it’s a good thing to allow?
I’m looking for a real answer, not to stir up anything.
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