December 23, 2020 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1931237
Given all of the negative press, both in secular and even in current rabbinic literature, I am curious to know why some parents still potch. I have head anecdotally of rabbonim who advocate spanking for chtuzpa, but am not able to locate any current sources. Are there any current seforim or shiurim which advocate potching in the current age?December 23, 2020 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1931286
Lech reid ki shiches amcha, says the midrash, mardus heim tzerichim. they need a stick, patsh. Explains tbe Dubner Magid, they are two kinds of rebbis. One, who knows a great deal but is very lenient but another who is not as knowledgeable but is very strict. You Moshe Rabbenu are from the ones who are to lenient and they did a strict rebbe even though he is not as knowledgeable. Shlomo Hamelech says, spare the rod, spoil the child. We say, you can get more with honey than vinegar. This depends on the age of a child. Chanoch lenaar lefi darkah, raise the child according to his understanding. An older child can be exolained why to avoid or do something.December 23, 2020 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1931287Yserbius123Participant
Define “current”. Pretty much all pre-war sifrei acharonim discuss potching in terms of a normal part of parenting. There isn’t much to discuss, unless the parent chas v’shalom injures their child.December 23, 2020 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1931292
Arguably, children today are less accepting of adult authority and may rebell if spanking . This is why I am curious if any post-war chinuch seforim recommend spanking, and under what circumstances.
Thanks in advanceDecember 23, 2020 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1931314Justwondering613Participant
as a child i was spanked-less than 2 decades ago- but nothing which stayed with me b”h
I know of people who patch their children today- it hasn’t completely died down…December 23, 2020 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1931316
It is not a general rule. A young child crossing the road in traffic requires spanking to avoid this in the future or any other endangerment like striking a match or opening the gas.December 23, 2020 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1931352meir GParticipant
amentch- “post war”- which war? yeshiva & parents to conversations-some facts & mesorah; up until the late 80’s serious level petch was routine even in litvishe yeshivos , even english principals wacked..& even a head counselor once in a while .. & even or especially berabim , as the 90’s came it slowed down & was suggested by gedolim to try other methods first.. the chassidishe were still giving petch until about 2005 and than started shifting but even the chassidishe petch was nothing like the petch of the 70’s . what changed was that the ” fear factor disappeared” meaning the fear to do the right thing , the busha of not being in yeshiva or changing levush evaporated to an extent. & the not wanting to hurt my parents… weakend ( in old days there were fry kids who would not marry a goyta just not to pain grandma. also around that time sprouted groups that were eager to embrace anyone wanting to leave ( like footsteps..)
as far as parents you dont need a “heter ” to give a patch. of course a beatdown is real kaas and not chinuch . (even though many readers remember those and are fine today) each family has their dynamics and a healthy child can handle petch when called for & will let you know what they think . most parents try diplomatic negotiations first & sometimes we blow it. there are many other strategies that are worse than petch & are far more manipulative , the WORST of which is HOMESCHOOLING. inc. those that have not sent their kids back to school since covid, hashem yishmor al baneihemDecember 23, 2020 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1931360December 23, 2020 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1931354
If angry, try to come down by counting to ten and think that tbe spanking is for his benefit and not yours.December 23, 2020 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1931456
meir g:WORST of which is HOMESCHOOLING
Meir, my version of Shema says “veshinantem l’vanecha” and nothing about patching. Yours seem to be the opposite
Of course, as Reb E mentions, if you have anger issues and can not overcome them with mussar, then you need to try positive methods only – sweets, payments, competition .. If that does not work, then you might be patur from “veshinantem l’vanecha”, and you will have, lo aleinu, send your kid to substitute parents.December 24, 2020 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1931618meir GParticipant
always ask Q.?
first i stand corrected that the term “WORST IN CAPS” was harsh, & home schooling is a totally diff. subject
( homeschooling touches a raw nerve , i have a distant relative who has bought in to this yetzer horah & when i occasionally see his kids it makes me plotz)( homeschooling is for kids on shlichus or when medically nec. )
i run a camp and rarely potch yet i believe & want my children to know that rebbi MAY give a potch if nec., & has that authority , my kids learn in an excellent yeshiva , yet i feel that if the kids knew the menahel has ” the right to give a potch ” it would be beneficial. the fact that the kids know ” you cant do nothing to me ” is very disarming , finally diff. community cultures play a big role in the contextDecember 24, 2020 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1931625johnkletsParticipant
To Amentch and all participants
look up at שבט הלוי חלק י”א תשובה רע”ח אות ב and you will find a clear answer on your question on potching in our times.
In הקדמה of ספר חובת התלמידים he points out that there is a derech hatora in chinuch which is applicable at al generations, like שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת , but while in previous generations even if someone was not so makpid on ימין מקרבת and he used more the שמאל דוחה it did not damage the childs yidishkeit because he was mekabel anyways, but today (and this was before the war) you have to be mechanech solely on derech hatorah שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת and you can not allow yourself to use only the שמאל.
The lubavitch rebbe in shichas י”ט כסלו תשל”א was talking against what some want to interpret the words of Shlomo Hamelech חושך שבטו שומא בנו as not meaning a real שבט etc. and pointed out that you cannot change the simple pshat of a possuk.
So look up the shevet haleviDecember 24, 2020 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1931628johnkletsParticipant
I agree with meir G both on homeschooling and potchingDecember 24, 2020 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1931652
I hate asking a personal question, but we are discussing education here. And you are an educator yourself. I presume you also went to an excellent yeshiva. So, it is relevant.
I see you are writing in full sentences and great spelling. At the same time, you are using CAPS only in the middle and not at the beginning of the sentences. Punctuation is randomized. I realize this is informal writing, and you can point back to my spelling. Still, for people who are used to writing well, like Reb Eleizer above, for example, correct writing is a habit, and does not require an effort.
So, what do you think is the source of your writing style? Do your children write the same way?December 24, 2020 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1931675December 24, 2020 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1931686
Spanking by parents is legal in all states, within certain parameters which differ from state to state, i.e. not leaving marks, using objects.December 24, 2020 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1931728YtParticipant
“I run a camp and rarely potch yet i believe & want my children to know that rebbi MAY give a potch if nec., & has that authority”
That is illegal…December 24, 2020 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1931752The little I knowParticipant
You wrote: “A young child crossing the road in traffic requires spanking to avoid this in the future or any other endangerment like striking a match or opening the gas.”
Apples and oranges. I have no interest in “teaching” my young child about traffic, matches, and the gas stove. My only interest is in inhibiting the dangerous behavior. That can be accomplished with various negative consequences, including the potch. I can reserve lessons about the dangers for later. In the behaviors which parents find irritating, which include chutzpah etc., the goal is to absorb the proper values in which these behaviors will not occur. The goal is to teach, not inhibit. Punishments fail to accomplish that. The comparison is irrelevant. You need a better argument to make potching something that is effective, a choice intervention, and logically appropriate.December 24, 2020 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1931760
I agree, stopping the behavior now and for the future. If one burns his hand, he will be careful next time.December 24, 2020 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1931773
In theory, one can say that spanking could be done under certain conditions, including the parent not acting on their anger but for sole benefit of the child (this is halakha for any tochecha)
In practice, people who are capable of self-control to fulfill those conditions, probably can find other ways of influencing a child in 99% of the cases.
Thus, with this Bayesian prior, if you see someone spanking, there is 99% chance that this is wrong and should be stopped.
This is even more true with the Rebbes than parents or trained teachers. Not just my opinion. I once asked a Rav about children behavior at school. He said that, according to his observation, it is evident where the problem is, if a child (or more often, many children) behaves in one class, and do not – in another.
So, you can apply the same test here: if you think child X deserve a patch, is there an agreement on that between all parents and teachers? Given them all a call. It will help anyway (one of the methods of dealing with anger is to delay the process).December 24, 2020 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1931781crackersParticipant
I believe spanking comes from anger issues. In most circumstances if your child does something in front of another adult you would control yourself from spanking. Unless it’s a danger where you won’t feel embarrassed from someone else to give your child a slap. Tip: always imagine someone is watching you before you slap.December 24, 2020 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1931801
crackers: Tip: always imagine someone is watching you before you slap.
good idea. Keep the window open or show yourself (house or class) on Facebook life. Maybe, just for relatives or school principals.
and of course, know Who is watching. Our generation understands this better than ever before.December 24, 2020 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1931827ujmParticipant
Did anyone consider the correlation between parents and teachers no longer utilizing (or it becoming much less prevalent) corporal punishments (potching, etc.) and children’s behavior haven gotten much worse in the generations since such punishments have gone out of style?December 24, 2020 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1931849
correlation – yes, causation – not sure. Lots of other things changed also. Make a controlled experiment – put similar kids with 2 different styles of teaching and see outcome.
Anecdotal observation from multiple people – kids behave way better with some teachers, and not others. Is your experience different?
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