October 13, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #592618
after what # date is it cool for a girl who is in the mainstream yeshivisha circle to call the shadchan and suggest a spontaneous date without being considered a flake?October 13, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #700475
i’m not totally sure what you mean “spontaneous date” but
after the 3rd for sure, even the 3rd date. If you mean doing something fun, not just sitting in a lounge.
If you mean working it out between yourselves, some ppl after
3-4 dates, some never, as they feel for some reason it’s
VERY necessary to have a middle man to relay day & time & dress code.October 13, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #700476
i mean where the girl suggests that they go out with only 2-7 hour advanced noticeOctober 13, 2010 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #700477bptParticipant
2-7 hours notice? Let me tell you, after 20+ years of marriage, 2-7 hours notice is a just a warm up in our place.
Makeup / what to wear / choosing a handbag can take almost that long.
Enjoy dating while it lasts!October 13, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #700478
What’s this about exactly? You testing him to see if he can come up with plans on the fly?October 13, 2010 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #700479BONDParticipant
I believe that if you went out twice and you have no reason to dislike the fellow then tell the shadchan to set up the next date and there is no reason to procrastinate unless the fellow possibly has a busy schedule . Also should go for the boy….If there is no real reason to say no to the shadchan then keep going out (Of course you are both entitled to say no for just about any reason as it is your future we are talking about..)But just to say NO for absolutely no pin pointed reason should not be happening. However after 6 dates.. some thought process should be made by both and there is no reason to just sporadically say lets go out for the fun of it.. as that is not the reason for DatingOctober 13, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #700480
I dated a guy for 6 months. Maybe around month 4 and 1/2? LOL. (I’m serious BTW)October 13, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #700481
By then, they should have dropped the shadchan already, in which case she can call him and suggest whatever she wants.
EDITEDOctober 13, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #700482
spontaneous dating seems weird and inappropriate to me.October 13, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #700483so rightMember
The girl should never be the one suggesting to go out. Especially if it isn’t at a very serious stage.October 13, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #700484
oh spontaneous! why didn’t you say so. What about the guy?
Even though guys generally need MUCH less time to prepare
than the girl, still it depends on the sitch some guys might be annoyed at it, though as you said, suggesting is just that.
I’d say when your sure its going somewhere from both sides.
guy likes you, you like him, so will be happy to work w/ you.
but two hours notice? common! might be too little.
How would you feel getting 2 hrs notice?
Remember guy needs a shave, shower, has to find a place, maybe needs a reservation, driving in from work traffic etc. So be reasonable. Hatzlacha!
At least most mainstream yeshivisha guys need a shave.October 13, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #700485ChossonMember
What’s the point in such a date?October 13, 2010 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #700486
I don’t think that that kind of casual hanging out is productive. If you need to discuss something, phone calls should be ok, and if you need more time or face time then set something up.
I don’t think it’s cool at any point, frankly. Do you have anyone IRL you’re close to, a rebbetzin, sem teacher, etc.? BTW, most “mainstream” yeshiva boys will be given pretty clear hadracha of how often it’s healthy to call or get together. These guidelines might seem annoying or restrictive, but trust me: I’ve been through it myself and shepherded some kids through it and ultimately, it’s a big bracha and the healthiest thing.October 13, 2010 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #700488
Sac; Wow must’ve costs the guy a fortune, take it from me,
dating too long doesn’t help, guys & girls can keep up the baloney for ages, so dont waste your time & money.
Do the necessary research, be thorough, daven to HB”H,
and trust him.October 13, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #700489
I don’t think that that kind of casual hanging out is productive. If you need to discuss something, phone calls should be ok, and if you need more time or face time then set something up.
I disagree. Married life is not about having serious hashkafa discussions. Most interaction with a spouse is just regular light interaction. I think it is important to find out if you enjoy one another’s company in the plain, day to day life, sense.
ie. If you like hanging out.
Ok, this discussion is absurd since we obviously have different concepts of the purpose of dating, based on different social models. Any discussion which is not based on similar premises is pointless. (except a discussion of those premises, which would in turn be based on similar overarching premises.)October 13, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #700490
you can set up a daytime date to see if you like hanging out. as a shidduch date barring special circumstances there is no reason to call up and say I want to see you so badly lets meet in 2 hours.October 13, 2010 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #700491
bein hasdorim – don’t worry about his financial situation ($$$$). Besides, we never did anything expensive.October 13, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #700492
It took you 4 and 1/2 months to realize he is cheap? :-pOctober 13, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #700493
I was dazzled by his good looks 😀
…. so was the other girl.October 13, 2010 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #700494
I guess guys aren’t the only ones who get taken in by looks. I always thought women were better at seeing past looks.October 13, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #700495
the point of such a date is that often times a match is fine on paper, but after 3-4 dates their is still no spark. It may be strange, but a spontaneous date many times changes the fomal atmosphere and creates the needed spark. 25 years ago when i dated, it was accepted in the yeshivisha velt to go on dates to places that were conducive to laughter and fun. ie: shooting arcades – mini golf ect.
Here in israel, all the dates are carbon copies of each other. (meet at a hotel lobby – 44 min later you go on a walk for exactly 46 minutes, and than go home) My daughter claims that for the most part the bochrim themselves are carbon copies of each other, with no independent personality or thoughts. (80% of all conversation is based on what his rav said) Imagine if she would go out with 2 guys who have the same Rav? The conversation would be identical.
She was hoping that maybe by calling the shadchan and suggesting a spontaneous date, that it would create an atmosphere beyond the standard dry and boring she has experienced till now.October 13, 2010 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #700496
Thats a little hypocritical, dont you think?
Truth is I thought he was fantastic looking, everyone else thought he was a dork 😉
Guess beauty really is in the eyes of the beholder…October 13, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #700497
PBA, I was working within the OP’s barometers. Shidduch dating, the engagement period is davka NOT to be like marriage but to get to know each other well enough to feel comfortable committing to life.October 13, 2010 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #700498
didja marry the handsome dork?
In America after the first couple of dates people go on the “fun” dates.October 13, 2010 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #700499
In America after the first couple of dates people go on the “fun” dates.
Eees and I are *still* going on fun dates. 🙂
The WolfOctober 13, 2010 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #700501
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder it has a lot to do with what you look like and what look you are used to and what you personally think is attractive so some girls are attracted to dorks and vice versa.October 13, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #700502
Shidduch dating runs on a continuum from beshows, to the 3-4 dates acceptable in Israel, the 6-8 acceptable in yeshivish Lakewood circles, the 10-12 acceptable in less yeshivish circles, to even a few months in some circles.
I don’t imagine that the same purposes are meant to be served by all these dating styles.
In any event, in the dating style I am familiar with, the purpose is supposed to evaluate your ability to spend enjoyable “downtime” in each other’s company. This was stressed by the rebbeim who I follow.October 13, 2010 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #700503
If I though everyone I was dating was dull and opinionless, I would eventually conclude that I was not choosing from the correct cohort.October 13, 2010 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #700504
“didja marry the handsome dork?”
No 🙁 but the girl he started dating at about 4.5 months into it is about to (or did, last I heard they were engaged)October 13, 2010 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #700505
He started dating her while still dating you?October 13, 2010 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #700506oomisParticipant
spontaneous dating seems weird and inappropriate to me.
SERIOUSLY? Since much of life is spontaneous, meaning that it is unpredictable, it would be a good thing to see how each of them handles a spontaneous date. Assuming they are both free that day or evening, two hour notice SHOULD be enough time. Now, that is also assuming the two like each other and are comfortable with each other to be “chill” about it. If they are still going through a shadchan, then they have clearly not reached that point yet.
(Personally, I feel the shadchan should just speak to the boy and girl to see if they agree to go out the first time, then let the boy call the girl himself to actually make the date. I am not for this nonsense that the boy and girl cannot make a date with out a third party doing the actual work of making the arrangements between them once they have each accepted the shidduch.)October 13, 2010 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #700507
WIY – He never confirmed it to me but I have my strong suspicions, I broke up with him on those suspicions and he thought it was a good idea to go our seperate ways. Within 2 months he was engaged.October 13, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #700508
Oy I’m sorry if he did that to you. I know that people have dated 2 people at a time but its usually when its still fresh and a few dates in. To do that after a few months of dating is disgusting and betrayal. I don’t want to get into your business you have already opened up plenty here, I just don’t know what purpose dating for 4 and 1/2 months has. Most people I know who are happily married didn’t date more than max 14 or 15 dates I know someone who dated close to 30 times before engagement and they are divorced. It shouldn’t take that long to figure out he’s/she’s for me.October 14, 2010 12:59 am at 12:59 am #700509
“To do that after a few months of dating is disgusting and betrayal”
I guess… I’m not really mad at him, he was a great guy, I just think he could’ve gone about it in a better way and not lead me on for as long as he did. I think he probably did that so as not to hurt me, thinking we would eventually fizzle, not realizing I would be hurt in the end.
Enough about me 🙂October 14, 2010 1:13 am at 1:13 am #700510smartcookieMember
Sac, if he did that to you, then you should be happy you aren’t married to him. His betrayal wouldn’t end there.
I’m sure that was very difficult for you though.October 14, 2010 1:44 am at 1:44 am #700511jay11691Member
TzefatView wrote: “Imagine if she would go out with 2 guys who have the same Rav? The conversation would be identical.”
That is one of the best, funniest, and sadly truthful comments I have seen on this forum.October 14, 2010 1:56 am at 1:56 am #700512
cookie – IDK, maybe. I feel that in shidduchim you have to do what is ultimately best for you, but you have to make sure that you arent hurting anyone along the way. If he felt this girl was best for him then I am sure she was, I’m just not sure he went about it in the best way.
Can we stop now, please? 😀October 14, 2010 2:21 am at 2:21 am #700513
Im stopping because you want us to stop but I have plenty more to say.October 14, 2010 3:50 am at 3:50 am #700514moderationMember
WellInformed and others:
I rarely post on these discussion boards; nevertheless, I have a strong issue with several of the similar statements at hand. These statements contribute to ruining our society.
THERE IS NO RIGHT AMOUNT OF DATES!!!
Somebody in Lakewood may just need 20 dates to make a correct decision; I know people who have dated for multiple years and are happily married; others who have dated 3 times and have great marriages. and of course, everything in between 2 weeks, 3 months, 6 months etc.
People need to feel as comfortable as possible. By creating a “maximum X amount of dates” mentality we are creating unnecessary pressure for engagement – often leading to ill-advised decisions which may lead to broken engagements/divorces.
This is a horrible, horrible thing. It is a life long decision. More than 14/15 dates is perfectly reasonable- one is choosing a life partner. Yes, they very may well be able to figure things out and have it “click’ right away.
On the other hand, most people all have their own individual issues and handicaps (health, financial, family-related, emotional etc.) Nobody is the “perfect” situation – people need to give serious thought and have sufficient experience accepting the person for who they are.
There are so many stories of people who trick their spouse over the course of the “maximum 3-4 dates” – they pretend to be more shtark; play down major family conflicts; pretend to be a good listener/dresser/davener etc. etc. etc. If one dates over more time, they get a better picture of the true emes. While for some this may be unnecessary, it may be very necessary for others. I dated a girl for close to six months before ending a relationship – the last 3 months were spent trying to work out ONE specific issue which ultimately could not be resolved.
Keep in mind, wouldn’t one rather date an extra ten dates and be more confident in their perspective of the other person and who they really are. It’s a lifelong decision. I believe it is this simple:
Best case scenario: An extra month or two dating, and have significant more insight and understanding of the other person – this will either give you significantly more confidence entering marriage or help avoid unwanted, life-altering decisions down the road.
Worst Case Scenario: Okay, so you spent a few extra nights at lobbies, restaurants, coffee shops etc. BIG DEAL!!!! Work on enjoying it; it can be fun. And if it doesn’t work out, hopefully youll learn more about yourself.
The Risk-Reward analysis is a no-brainer: so much to gain and so little to lose by just taking an extra month or two (or three) to really learn more about your potential LIFE LONG partner.October 14, 2010 4:13 am at 4:13 am #700515
What’s the correct number of dates AFTER marriage? 🙂
The WolfOctober 14, 2010 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #700517
C’mon ShZ, that’s not what a BNB is all about.
And of course there’s no right amount of dates, even in the more yeshivish circles it’s important to take your time. Just don’t do it too much too often. A chosson and kallah aren’t bf and gf, and while they should spend time together doing things other than making their plans there really should be some boundaries. Any responsible mashgiach or mentor will say this.
Again, OP referred to “mainstream yeshivish circles.”October 14, 2010 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #700518
I dont understand why every body is so worried about what everyone else will think. You have to do what will work for you. If you are both COMPLETELY sure after a week and a half go for it. If it takes you a year and a half take your time. There is nothing “main stream Yeshivish” about finding a life partner. It’s not something a Rav with a beard can force you into, and when they do it often backfires.October 14, 2010 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #700519minyan galMember
shlomozalman – I don’t know whether or not you are married, but if you are I doubt that your wife would care to be just part of a functional arrangement. Marriage is a partnership even if the main function of the partnership is to have children. Does it mean an immediate divorce if there are fertility issues that cannot be solved (yes, even in today’s day and age some cannot)?October 14, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #700520
sac I agree strongly that you cant put a number on it.October 14, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #700522Ben TorahParticipant
minyan gal: Does it mean an immediate divorce if there are fertility issues that cannot be solved (yes, even in today’s day and age some cannot)?
After 10 years of no children, a divorce is in order. (Yes, even in today’s day and age.)October 14, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #700523
Arc and others
You can. Not a set number but a range. You see in the Yeshivish community and Chassidish community that a specific small date range seems to work. If people used the dates to discuss tachlis and not just blab about stupidity then dating can be and would be short and within a few dates most people would know yes or no. The problem is that there are people who don’t talk tachlis until 4th date or later. Dating is not meant for fun. Its goal oriented. You are basically interviewing the person for the job of spouse. If the right questions are asked and the right topics are discussed it can be wrapped up in an average of 10 dates.October 14, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #700524apushatayidParticipant
Functional arrangement? May I suggest you speak to your Rebbe for some hadracha, BEFORE you get married, or even start dating.
When I was dating there was a rule of thumb, at least in my yeshiva among my chevra, that after 3 dates you should be sufficiently comfortable with a person to tell them that you are or are not interested in seeing them further.October 14, 2010 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #700525
Since marriage in yeshivishe circles is a functional arrangement necessary to produce more yidden,
Is that really all marriage is to you?
a spontaneous date is prohibited and raises serious questions regarding your level of commitment to torah true yiddishkeit.
I fail to see how one follows from the other. I don’t see how (A) Spontaneous dates are incompatible with (B) marriage to produce more Jews and how (A) spontanous dates raises questions about (C) one’s level of commitment to yiddeshkeit.
Please elaborate on how (A) leads to both (B) and (C).
The WolfOctober 14, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #700526
There is a range that is standard but there are times where more is needed and they arent wrong.
say your lakewood average is 6-8 dates, if a couple needs 19 dates that should be ok is what I’m saying.October 14, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #700527smartcookieMember
Shlomozalman- your way of thinking is a bit off.
No one gets married for the sake of having children. Even couples that have a family of 10+ kids still need a beautiful relationship in which they really love each others.
- The topic ‘Spontaneous date?’ is closed to new replies.