Star-K updates Starbucks list

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  • #618690

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    The Star-K has updated the list of Kosher Starbucks products. Go to the Star-K website for the updated list.

    #1192488

    Joseph
    Participant

    Did Star-K stop recommending Jews drink at all in any Starbucks restaurant now that Starbucks has begun preparing non-kosher meat products in virtually all Starbucks restaurants and washes the meat utensils together with the coffee utensils?

    #1192489


    Participant

    Did Starbucks change the formulation of the Caramel Drizzle?

    #1192490

    Opinioninyon
    Participant

    What was the change?

    #1192491

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    ” November 14, 2016

    STARBUCKS – UPDATED KOSHER INFORMATION

    STAR-K announced today that it has updated its recommended drink list for Starbucks to include a number of Frappuccino drinks. These drinks are recommended in the USA and Canada only. They are processed on cold equipment.

    The following Frappuccino drinks have been added to the approved list.

    Coffee or Espresso Frappuccino – The only dairy-cholov stam ingredient in this product is the added milk. Other ingredients are made on dairy-cholov stam equipment.

    Caramel Frappuccino -Contains dairy-cholov stam ingredients

    Mocha Frappuccino – Contains dairy-cholov stam ingredients

    In New York and New Jersey there are some stores that are offering the option of requesting cholov Yisroel milk and cream. Please note that this program is not audited or certified by Star-K. Consumers who request cholov Yisroel milk in these stores should use their discretion in confirming the cholov Yisroel status of the milk being served.” (Baltimore Jewish Life)

    Wow did you know that Starbuck’s is international? I guess that makes sense since it’s huge… just never realized that they had it in other countries

    #1192492

    Meno
    Participant

    “Did Star-K stop recommending Jews drink at all in any Starbucks restaurant now that Starbucks has begun preparing non-kosher meat products in virtually all Starbucks restaurants and washes the meat utensils together with the coffee utensils?”

    If you would go to the Star-K website and see the updated list you would know the answer to that.

    Spoiler Alert: They did not.

    #1192493

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno, so Star-K recommends that it is okay, from their perspective, for kosher consumers to consume coffee prepared in a Starbucks that also prepares non-kosher meat and potentially washes their meat and coffee utensils together?

    #1192494

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: This is what the Star-K prints at the top of the page of what they recommend at full service locations and kiosks:

    “We recommend one avoid buying drinks that are made with equipment that may have been washed with treif meat at full service Starbucks stores that serve hot sandwiches. We, therefore, recommend the following:”

    In their article from 2011 it states:

    #1192495

    Joseph
    Participant

    Given that almost all Starbucks now prepare meat, that would indicate Star-K doesn’t approve buying even regular coffee from a Starbucks store.

    #1192496

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: I guess that’s why there is a “red x” next to the “brewed coffee”.

    #1192497

    Meno
    Participant

    “Meno, so Star-K recommends that it is okay, from their perspective, for kosher consumers to consume coffee prepared in a Starbucks that also prepares non-kosher meat and potentially washes their meat and coffee utensils together?”

    Joseph,

    Take a look at the list before drawing conclusions. The Star-K makes it quite clear what they hold is acceptable and what is not. They put it in a nice clear table with big, bold, green check marks and red X’s.

    The only thing they I feel they didn’t explain well is the second column. There’s an asterisk next to the word “traveling” but it doesn’t lead to any footnotes. I’ve heard in the past that if you’re driving and need to stop for coffee then it’s better to rely on kulos than potentially fall asleep at the wheel. But the article on the Star-K website that says the following:

    Based on the reasoning I mentioned, I don’t understand the reason for being lenient on airplanes.

    #1192498

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yet he disapproves getting one’s midday coffee break at Starbucks. Or drinking coffee there to shmooze with someone.

    Same principle should apply to Dunkin Donuts and other similar places.

    #1192499

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Meno – above the asterisk is a link to their Kashrus Kurrents article on the topic. If the mods let in the link, here it is:

    http://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/601/dont-drink-the-coffee/

    As for the airplanes, I believe the reasoning is based on the Noda B’Yehuda that the article quotes. I have not seen it in a while, but IIRC he says that the lack of an alternative makes it an automatic b’dieved. So if you are on an airplane and need a coffee, since there is no other way to get a coffee it would be muttar to drink it.

    #1192500

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Same principle should apply to Dunkin Donuts and other similar places.

    Unless they wash their equipment in water which is below yad soledes bo.

    #1192501

    Meno
    Participant

    “So if you are on an airplane and need a coffee, since there is no other way to get a coffee it would be muttar to drink it.”

    What does “need a coffee” mean?

    Would the same apply if I “needed a hamburger” and the only one available had a questionable hashgacha?

    (I’m not challenging R’ Heinemann or the Noda B’Yehuda, I’m just trying to understand the reasoning)

    #1192502

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: If the DD isn’t certified kosher, you’d have no way to trust whether the water is below yad soledes bo or not.

    shebb: Coffee is not critically required in an airport or air flight that you could rely on a b’dieved.

    #1192503

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno – I haven’t been following this whole thing at all, but I could theoretically see a situation of someone “needing a coffee.”. Maybe she is a mother travelling with young kids and she will not be able to deal with them w/o her coffee. Maybe he/she has a car parked by the airport and will have to be able to drive as soon as he gets off the plane. Maybe he/she is extremely addicted to coffee and really can’t manage w/o it.

    In terms of “Would the same apply if “I needed a hamburger”…”, you could ask the same question about the guy driving. I understand that you feel it’s pikuach nefesh because he may fall asleep at the wheel, but what if he is really hungry and may get dizzy if he doesn’t eat? Would you say it would be okay for him to eat the hamburger? No, you would say that he should either try to manage or call a taxi or call someone to pick him up, etc.

    Truthfully, I think the guy in the car may have more options than the guy on the plane. For one thing, he had the option of bringing an energy drink with him in the car which the guy on the plane may not have had.

    The pikuach nefesh argument sounds a bit shvach to me altogether and clearly only applies since the coffee is not mamash assur altogether, and just shouldn’t be drunk l’chatchila (at least that’s how it sounds to me, if it is being allowed in certain circumstances).

    #1192504

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: What if your sleepy pilot needs a coffee? He’s frum. Are you going to deny him?

    #1192505

    Meno
    Participant

    “I could theoretically see a situation of someone “needing a coffee.”. Maybe she is a mother travelling with young kids and she will not be able to deal with them w/o her coffee. Maybe he/she has a car parked by the airport and will have to be able to drive as soon as he gets off the plane. Maybe he/she is extremely addicted to coffee and really can’t manage w/o it.”

    These are all just “sha’as ha’dchak” cases that just happen to involve travelling. I don’t see anything inherent in travelling that should warrant a blanket heter for someone who is travelling.

    Truth is, if you just read the footnote on the Star-K article linked above, it sounds like the mere fact that you have no other option (not that you “need a coffee”) is enough to be lenient. I would like to see what the Noda B’Yehuda actually said. I know there are people here who are good at finding stuff. Get on that

    #1192506

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: While you may have a different poseik to rely on who is machmir even for travelers, the poseik for the Star-K Rabbi Moshe Heinemann is meikel.

    #1192507

    Joseph
    Participant

    I was referring to the Noda B’Yehuda who cited a Kula, mentioned by shebb.

    #1192508

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Lightbrite- lol! That would definitely be an emergency situation! But I don’t think that was the issue they were talking about.

    Meno – that is true in theory, but I guess the point is that it is generally only when people are travelling that they are likely to be stuck! I mean how likely is it that someone is sitting at home, and they DESPERATELY need a coffee, and they are out of coffee, and the ONLY place they can get coffee is Starbucks???

    Like, if you can get out to Starbucks, why can’t you get to the supermarket and purchase coffee (or borrow from a neighbor)?? Unless Starbucks is open 24/7 (is it?) and there are no supermarkets that are open 24/7, and it’s the middle of the night and for some odd reason you desperately need a coffee in the middle of the night and somehow you didn’t plan ahead and buy coffee (or borrow from a neighbor) when you saw it was used up? Not a very likely scenario, imho.

    I think that in general, travelling is often used in halacha as a reason to be lenient in many areas – such as netilas yadayim, and davening before netz, etc. So it does seem to be something that is recognized in halacha as a circumstance that can allow for leniencies.

    #1192509

    shebbesonian
    Participant

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    #1192510

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    I would cite the Yad Efraim as well, but I don’t have it on my computer and I left that volume in yeshiva today.

    From the Noda B’Yehuda it seems that there doesn’t need to be a pressing need to be mattir on the road, just the fact that you don’t have an alternative makes it an automatic b’dieved situation.

    Also see Gilyon Maharsha YD 122 who says that even minhag kedoshim was to be lenient about drinking coffee from a coffeehouse that serves non-kosher. I also don’t the source with me, but if you want I can type it up tomorrow.

    #1192511

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “From the Noda B’Yehuda it seems that there doesn’t need to be a pressing need to be mattir on the road, just the fact that you don’t have an alternative makes it an automatic b’dieved situation.”

    So according to this, I would assume that the reason why travelling was the only thing mentioned on the Star-K website is as I stated above. If you are not travelling, how would you have a situation where Starbucks is THE ONLY option? If you are at home, you have your own kitchen, but if you are travelling, you do not.

    #1192512

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    lilmod – I would conclude the same as you. However, I can imagine a case where you are not traveling that the Noda B’Yehuda may apply – suppose somebody must attend a business meeting in a Starbucks. Of course you can order an espresso or Americano which poses no issue at all (because the espresso machine parts are not washed with anything else). But if the person doesn’t drink espresso, it might be considered to be the b’dieved case of the Noda B’Yehuda.

    #1192513

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    except that in that case, he has the option of drinking coffee both before and afterwards (is he that addicted that he needs to drink coffee every hour?) In terms of feeling required to order something at the meeting, don’t they serve Coke there? And if not, he can just tell them that he can’t order anything for Kashrus reasons. It shouldn’t be a big deal, I would think.

    Unless he was travelling beforehand and t/f couldn’t get a coffee, but in that case, he would have the din of a traveller anyhow.

    It really does seem to me (as I mentioned previously) that halacha in general gives exceptions for travelers in many instances. (I’m not saying there can’t be other possible b’dieved situations, I just think they would be rare).

    #1192514

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    BTW: Starbucks’ kiosks have more kosher options. They may be more reliable than the grocery store.

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