Starbucks kosher?

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  • #614714

    the plumber
    Member

    every day i go into work and see employees/clients with the white starbucks cup.

    Having checked with some well known and reliable kashrus agencies (aka crc, star k etc) i dont see who allows this!

    Am i mechuyav to be dan lekav zechus that theyre just refilling a cup with their own cofee?

    #1188751

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This is where the concept of achazukei issur lo mechazkinan comes in. Why should a plain cup of coffee be a problem? Even the cRc’s recommended chumra was not on regular coffee, and only in certain types of stores.

    There are people who don’t buy anything without hechsher, and there are things that could go wrong, but there’s no need to “be dan l’kaf z’chus” when it’s muttar meikar hadin.

    #1188752

    besalel
    Participant

    there is a real thorough analysis by the star k about coffee from not kosher establishments. i dont know if this link is allowed but ill give it a shot: http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-thirst-coffee.htm

    #1188753

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Either you didn’t check with the CRC or StarK, or you have poor reading comprehension. They both have comprehensive lists of what they say is okay to get, okay but not recommended, and what not to get at Starbucks.

    So why not be dan l’kaf zechus that they bought something that is kosher, and I’ll be dan l’kaf zechus that you weren’t aware of the CRC and StarK comprehensive lists.

    #1188754

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Uh oh, better hide this thread before Popa finds it!

    #1188755

    the plumber
    Member

    Shebbesonian- the word “recomended” in the crc app/website mean “kosher” and “not recomended” means not kosher”. Technically alot of things are “kosher” but we dont necesarily use/eat them unless they are “recomended” by kashrus authorities. I dont see ANY kashrus authorities that list them as “recomended”. Kashrus is a big deal. Something to be taken seriously.

    #1188756

    LBK
    Participant

    besides for the Star-K’s analysis on coffee from non-kosher establishments, they also did an article on coffee from Starbucks in particular (http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-Summer11.pdf).

    #1188757

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I call troll.

    #1188758

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I misremembered. The cRc does suggest avoiding regular coffee, but they only consider it a chumra, plus there are drinks that are not even in that category. So no “dan l’kaf z’chus” mental gymnastics required.

    #1188759

    MDG
    Participant

    ” The cRc does suggest avoiding regular coffee, but they only consider it a chumra”

    Is that because of kosher ingredients or Bishul Yisrael? There is a discussion about B”Y for coffee.

    #1188760

    FrumRav
    Member

    Unfortunately I see a lot of people getting frapacino’s which are treif, so….

    #1188761

    Sam2
    Participant

    I thought all of the Chumras by Starbucks were only because of how they wash the Keilim.

    #1188762

    FrumRav
    Member

    No it is also because some of the drinks @ Starbucks are treif

    #1188763

    the plumber
    Member

    Frumrav

    Some or all?

    #1188764

    FrumRav
    Member

    the plumber some

    #1188765

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Maybe they have an ulcer?

    #1188766

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    the plumber – i know exactly what they meant. They have 3 levels. Not recommended – i.e. not kosher. Recommended, but relying on certain leniencies, i.e. kosher m’ikur hadin. Regular coffee falls into this one if I recall correctly. And recommended l’chumra. Espresso falls into this one, and if I recall, the reason is because the espresso machine is not washed with other keilim. So a plain espresso poses no problem for anybody. Unless you put in milk, then it’s just not cholov yisrael.

    So, with no stretch of the imagination, you can be dan l’kaf zechus that people are either getting regular coffee or espresso.

    #1188767

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Or tea, or Via, or buying any inherently kosher drink from a Starbucks without treif meals, or not keeping chumras just because a kashrus organization holds of it if their posek doesn’t.

    #1188768

    the plumber
    Member

    Shebbosonim

    On the crc website they say there are issues with ALL starbucks drinks because of keilim washing with treif keilim (obv the drinks that are not kosher are not kosher). This applies to all starbucks stores but does mot apply to kiosks (aka at airport…)

    Besides for that ive spoken to star k that assurs everything completely

    There you have it. Feel free to check it out

    #1188769

    Vogue
    Member

    When I go to starbucks, I get the bottled ethos water. If u drink milk that is chalav stam, they often have milk boxes of horizon milk. Many grocery stores have starbucks coffee in their milk section.

    #1188770

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Star-K says the same as well. Plus, tea and Via coffee with a hechsher have no issues according to them (Star-K mentions tea, cRc mentions Via coffee).

    #1188771

    The odd thing is that Starbucks is run by a Jew that has what to do with Jewishness. Supposedly (according to him) he was close to Rav Nosson Tzvi and met him multiple times and has helped different causes —yet his coffee store does not have kosher certified ingredients by and large [of course having every store kosher certified would be complex]. Ie the frappucino mix [even though the one’s in the bottle are reliable to those who drink Cholov Stam].

    There is plenty to be chaf zchus…

    The basic syrups (like vanilla, hazelnut, etc.) are kosher certified [they are not “Starbucks” syrups per se]. Caramel is not. Mocha is made with a certified mixture in my recollection. Anything specifically for Starbucks (at least in the past) is not certified. However nothing has gelatin or such (again in the past -it’s been a few years since I had what to do with Starbucks)

    Therefore, one getting a vanilla or hazelnut latte has what to be so-mech on.

    And according to Rav Abadi (at least a Kosher Starbucks website) most things are kosher based on ingredients.Though I do not believe many hold that way usally – It’s seems that the minhag of many was to drink at Starbucks. There was one on Central Avenue in Cedarhurst (now a kosher coffee place) that was quite often used by Orthodox Jews including frappucinos.

    I think in some ways the kashrus orgs antithesis towards for example plain coffee is perhaps partially to show that the lenient attitude in general is not warranted. However the attitude is pervasive in Modern orthodox circles (and some regular middle of the road circles) and I imagine that either 1) there is what to be so-mech on 2) it’s likely a rabbanical issue (ie d’rabbanan – by kli sheni etc. – dishwashers are a discussion in general perhaps different to ashkenazim and sefardim) that there is just lack of knowledge about due to how other’s act – not something that deserves much chagrin nor protest from others.

    DQB

    #1188772

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Regarding regular coffee from Starbucks, and the cRc’s opinion to try and avoid it: I heard a shiur a few years ago on the topic. It seems it’s actually a machlokes between the cRc and the OU on whether the plain coffee is ok. The cRc says it’s better to avoid, the OU says it’s perfectly fine. I asked the Rav who we should follow. His response was, “You live on the East coast, not in Chicago, so you should probably follow the OU. Those in Chicago should probably follow the cRc.”

    #1188773

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “You live on the East coast, not in Chicago, so you should probably follow the OU. Those in Chicago should probably follow the cRc.”

    Don’t you have your own rav? Shouldn’t you be following him, rather than any kashrus organizations?

    #1188774

    Joseph
    Participant

    The OU is national and nothing specific to the East Coast. While the cRc is regional, they are not universally accepted even in their own region.

    #1188775

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    the plumber – you are being very deceptive, maybe even outright lying. if the mods let this go, here is a link to the crc starbucks file http://www.crcweb.org/Starbucks%20cRc%20Full%20Article%20April%202011.pdf

    They have clear charts with check marks and x’s for what’s recommended and not recommended, and they have separate columns for in-store and kiosks. So please stop with the deceit.

    #1188776

    the plumber
    Member

    Shabbesonian

    Again with your “recomended” and “not recomended”.

    Stick with “kosher” and “not kosher”

    When they say recomended they mean kosher and not recomended means not kosher

    As far as ive seen, in a kiosk spme are kosher

    In a store, theyre not. The syrups and cofees can all be fine but if you were to watch what they are doing behind the counter, there are NO plasticware, and they only use metal which is mixing/making hot drinks all day and getting washed with non kosher keilim.

    If you want to live with kulos than go for it. Just dont tell others its a davar pashut that its fine, because many disagree with you

    #1188777

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When you started this, the only way you found to be dan l’kaf z’chus is that they’re refilling the cup. Take a look again at those lists, and you’ll see several other very reasonable options.

    #1188779

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Not sure why my response wasn’t posted, but go to page 17-18 of the crc article that I linked and you will see what they consider to be kosher with no shailos, kosher, but with various shailos, so better to avoid, and simply not kosher. You will see that espresso, americano, iced latte, are are all kosher with no shailos, provided you ask them to make it in a disposable cup, both in store and at kiosks. I’m not sure why you are hesitant to be dan l’kaf zechus, where there are clearly plenty of drinks to get that are perfectly kosher.

    #1188780

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    “Not recommended – i.e. not kosher”

    That’s clearly incorrect. It means that they can’t verify that it’s kosher. Like the lemonade. It doesn’t mean it’s not kosher. Obviously, rov flavorings are kosher, and kol deporish merubo porish.

    #1188781

    Joseph
    Participant

    Almost every Starbucks started selling prepared meat sandwiches, usually prepared in the store. Does this fact change the permissibility of buying their coffee in almost all Starbucks stores?

    #1188782

    Softwords
    Participant

    I don’t know why nobody quoted the sources instead of interpreting what they say. Here is a partial quote from Star-K on their website:

    “Full-service Starbucks stores offer non-kosher breakfast items, like bacon and turkey sandwiches. While this is not a revelation, it may surprise you the extent to which this affects the kashrus of Starbucks coffees. These treif meats are served on ceramic dishes. The dirty dishes are washed in a three- compartment sink along with the brew baskets used to make the coffee and the small metal milk pitchers used to steam milk for lattes. It is this clean-up procedure that has soured many kashrus agencies on Starbucks coffee. While leniencies exist to allow the coffee in spite of the clean-up issues, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, shlita, Rabbinic Administrator of the Star-K, has decided against using them.

    But take heart, for all is not lost. Firstly, the above is true only at full-service Starbucks stores that serve treif sandwiches and the like. However, at the smaller Starbucks kiosks, typically located in airports and train stations, sandwiches are usually not offered. The good news is that the coffee making equipment at these establishments remains free of treif blios (non-kosher absorption), and you are permitted to drink the coffee there.

    #1188783

    Softwords
    Participant

    the plumber – Dan Likav Zechut in this case would be either 1) they checked into it and are careful only to drink what is actually kosher or 2) although they may actually be drinking non-kosher coffee it is being done b’shogeig (without intent to sin) based on misinformation.

    We do not have to go so far as to make up unrealistic scenarios just to place people in good light. There are enough “realistic” possibilities to believe in to place others in good light. This is what is truly meant by Dan Likav Zechus.

    I heard a story once that a Mashgiach of a renown Yeshivah was informed that a bachur was smoking in his room on shabbos. He went down to the room and saw that the room was full of smoke. Not coming to conclusions he asked the bachur for an explanation why the room was full of smoke. The bachur explained that he had a strong urge to smoke and so he smoked up until he needed to be mikabel Shabbos and then put out the cigarette. Being a smoker he didn’t feel the need to open the windows and that is why there was still smoke in the room.

    In this story we see that the other student who informed on him jumped to conclusions when he saw the smoke. All he had to do was think realistically and he could have easily came to the correct conclusion.

    #1188784

    Joseph
    Participant

    Over the past year or two almost all Starbucks locations, including at airports and other smaller kiosks, have become full-service Starbucks stores offering non-kosher breakfast items, like bacon and turkey sandwiches.

    #1188785

    Joseph
    Participant

    The maskama is that now virtually all Starbucks locations are treif even for plain coffee since they virtually all now prepare treif meat on location?

    #1188786

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not treif entirely, since there are shittos to rely on, but certainly not l’chatchilah according to many (including the posek I asked).

    #1188787

    Joseph
    Participant

    Apparently a non-kosher certified Dunkin Donuts is thus better from a kashrus perspective, since they don’t prepare meat, than a Starbucks.

    #1188788

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The maskama is that now virtually all Starbucks locations are treif even for plain coffee since they virtually all now prepare treif meat on location?

    The maskana is that you are a liar and misrepresent the Torah. See above.

    Some people steal torah scrolls. You steal torah.

    #1188789

    Meno
    Participant

    Dunkin Donuts doesn’t prepare meat?

    #1188790

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Apparently a non-kosher certified Dunkin Donuts is thus better from a kashrus perspective, since they don’t prepare meat, than a Starbucks.

    You don’t know anything. Dunkin donuts prepares meat.

    #1188791

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course Dunkin has treif available. The issue is whether the utensils are washed together with the coffee making equipment in hot water, as they are in Starbucks.

    #1188792

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is there reason to think that an uncertified Dunkin Donuts (or any random coffee shop) washes its coffee equipment in a better manner, from a kashrus perspective, than Starbucks? Or must they all be avoided, l’chatchila, for even black coffee?

    #1188793

    A nony mouse
    Participant

    I didn’t read the comments but I’ve looked into the Starbucks issue and it seems like many of their stores have become restaurants making the coffees not kosher.

    If they dont serve anything other than coffee and drinks then it shouldn’t be a problem just make sure chalav yisrael milk is used (if u don’t drink chalav stam)

    #1188794

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There is no reason to go to Starbucks for coffee. Coffee is very easy to make on your own.

    #1188795

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dislike coffee, however I know that Starbucks coffee is not the same as home brewed, they are more than just coffee, they are flavored

    #1188796

    Meno
    Participant

    I make my own starbucks coffee

    #1188797

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So buy some lavender seeds, plant them, harvest the buds, boil them in cane syrup, and pump some into your coffee. It’s not that hard.

    #1188798

    Meno
    Participant

    They put lavendar in Starbucks coffee? Yuck

    I hope that’s not true, because then I would get less s’char for not buying their coffee

    #1188799

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I don’t know what they put in Starbucks coffee. I make my own coffee. Lavender syrup is delicious.

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