April 22, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #596422shlishiMember
If you miss or say incorrectly by Morid Hatal or V’sein Bracha or Ya’aleh VeYavo, how much further can you go that you can still go back to what you missed/said wrong, and at what point must you start Shemone Esre over from the beginning?
And if you can still go back, from where do you go back to? And if you are at a point where you must start over, do you stop saying Shemone Esrei — wherever you are at the moment you realize — or do you finish the borcha you’re in middle of before going back and starting Shemone Esre over from the beginning?
Also, during bentching if you miss Rtzei (on Shabbos) or Ya’aleh VeYavo, there are certain points where you can insert it later. Where are they, and until what point do you still have that ability? And are there similar makeup points like that in Shemone Esrei for Atta Chonentanu or Ya’aleh VeYavo?April 22, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #778769shlishiMember
Also, if you already completed the S”A, and you realize your mistake later, how much later can you still repeat S”A as opposed to having to wait for the next Tefila to say two S”A’s?April 27, 2011 7:41 am at 7:41 am #778770Dovid HaMelechMember
I believe you can go back as long as you haven’t yet started Elokai Netzar.April 28, 2011 3:23 am at 3:23 am #778771Dovid HaMelechMember
I believe you can repeat Shemone Esrei as long as you haven’t completely finished the Tefilla (i.e. Oleinu) yet. If you have, you’ll need to say a second Shemone Esrei at the following Tefilla.June 21, 2011 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #778772Avram in MDParticipant
We were actually learning this sugya in my gemara shiur recently.
There is a difference between V’sein Bracha and Ya’aleh V’yavo, in that the former is said during the “middle” supplication portion of the Shemoneh Esrei, while the latter is said as part of the final three brachos (e.g., R’tzei through the end of the tefilla). Thus, for V’sein Bracha, you can make it up through Shomeah Tefilla, but afterwards you must repeat your tefilla. By Ya’aleh V’yavo, you can make it up as long as you have not finished your tefilla. If you finished, then you must repeat.
The Gemara has a discussion clarifying what the end of the tefilla is. It could be at the end of the bracha of Shalom, when you take three steps back, or at the end of your personal supplications if you have a minhag to add them. A further discussion is made regarding supplications before the three steps vs. after the three steps. The last opinion stated holds that customary supplications made before the three steps back (e.g., Elokai n’tzor) are considered part of the tefilla, and thus you can go back to R’tzei and say Ya’aleh V’yavo if you remember during Elokai n’tzor, but once you take three steps back, you have to repeat your Shemoneh Esrei, even if you haven’t said Y’hi Ratzon (the supplication after the three steps) yet. We didn’t discuss this in the shiur, but I would imagine that the above wouldn’t apply to supplications that you don’t normally say, even if you said them before the three steps. I have a recollection that the Artscroll says to repeat if you’ve said Yih’yu L’ratzon (the final sentence of Elokai n’tzor), which would make sense given the above.
One big exception to this is the Ya’aleh V’yavo of ma’ariv on Rosh Chodesh. Here, you don’t go back to R’zei, even if you remember in the very next bracha!
I have not yet learned the answer to the second question (how late can you repeat if you remember later), but since your first tefilla did not “go up”, then I don’t see why you couldn’t say another Shemoneh Esrei if you still have time – as opposed to waiting until the following tefilla, since a tefillah bizmana is better than a “make up” tefilla. I’ll ask a question about it at my next shiur!
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