Status of a Cheresh or Shoita Today

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  • #597923

    Droid
    Member

    Has the halachic status that makes a cheresh or shoita not obligated in mitzvos still applicable today, considering the advancement of medical technology that allows many of them to engage in society?

    Also, what is the reason women are invalid as witnesses?

    #800772

    The only true shoite is one who votes for the present occupant of the White House in 2012.

    #800773

    I’ve seen a teshuvah from, I think it was Rav Elyashiv, about a Cheresh. But it was really long and I don’t remember the maskana.

    #800774

    havarka
    Member

    Hello,

    mistome those people who cannot speak but they have a way to communicate to the others there are considered normal and have obligations to do all mitzvos, reaya – from the gittin mi seochzo if the husband nistatek ve hirkin roysho ..he is considered ok, but about shoite i dont know.

    have a nice day. Zeev

    #800775

    Why would a shoiteh have a different status today than in the past?

    #800776

    Englishman
    Member

    Why would a cheresh have a different status today than in the past?

    #800777

    charliehall
    Participant

    “The only true shoite is one who votes for the present occupant of the White House in 2012.”

    Why are you hijacking this serious thread?

    #800778

    It is just that we now understand that only the most profoundly mentally disabled LA are really shoitim. Someone who is developmentally delayed but educable, such as a person with Down’s Syndrome, is not a shoite by any means – 2 generations ago a person with Down’s would be considered a shoite.

    #800779

    Regardless, if you plan to vote for Obama in 2012, you are a shoite even if you have an advanced degree or two or smicha yodin yodin for that matter!

    #800780

    Englishman
    Member

    Why would a cheresh have a different status today than in the past?

    #800781

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why would a cheresh have a different status today than in the past?

    The assumption is that a cheresh could not communicate (or be communicated to) and hence, could not be educated.

    Today, we have means to communicate and educate people who are deaf, mute or both.

    The Wolf

    #800783

    Englishman
    Member

    So is the question then a person who may have been categorized as a cheresh in another generation would not be today characterized as a cheresh? Or is the question whether a cheresh today is still patur from mitzvos, even if we acknowledge the person today does fall under the halachic category as a cheresh?

    The distinction is a fine line between those two considerations, but nevertheless perhaps critical to answering the question.

    #800784

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are two types of cheresh; one who speaks but cannot hear, and one who cannot do either. The former is considered a bar da’as, the latter is not.

    With today’s advanced technology, most deaf people can be taught to speak (and cochlear implants can help them hear, although the status of these and other devices is questionable as to whether considered halachic hearing).

    #800785

    The answer is who falls under each category.

    #800786

    Englishman
    Member

    With today’s advanced technology, most deaf people can be taught to speak (and cochlear implants can help them hear, although the status of these and other devices is questionable as to whether considered halachic hearing).

    On the same token in regard to a shoiteh, whereas in previous generations he was what he was, with today’s medicine with antidepressents or other medications, perhaps there is a change in halachic status if he is medically able to function in a normal or semi-normal manner?

    #800787

    charliehall
    Participant

    ” if you plan to vote for Obama in 2012″

    I plan to vote for Obama in 2012. But this is really irrelevant to this thread.

    #800788

    Droid
    Member

    What is the halachic definition of a shoita?

    #800789

    if you plan to vote for Obama in 2012″

    I plan to vote for Obama in 2012. But this is really irrelevant to this thread.

    The answer is who falls under each category…………..

    #800790

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charles,

    The gemara gives certain indicators for a shoteh. The “heavy bear” is giving a modern example of an action that is a clear indicator of a shoteh. I can ‘t say that his indicator has been disproven. Certainly a Modern individual as yourself would see the benefit of a modern indicator.

    #800791

    shlishi
    Member

    Halacha defines what constitutes being a shoiteh. I don’t see how medication would change that.

    Next thing you know, some people might also want to change the definition of a koton. Nowadays some people might even tell you a 13 year old is still a koton, even though the Torah tells us he is an adult. Y’know, children take longer to grow up these days; in the olden days they used to work on the farm by 13; nowadays even a 20 year old can be a child!

    #800792

    Very stupid to classify a shoiteh anyone who doesn’t share your views. don’t think I’ll vote for Obama, but neither do I think anyone stupid in doing so. Someone who is one track minded is also considered a shoiteh?

    #800793

    Umm..someone who can’t get a joke may also fit the dumbed-down definition of a shoiteh.

    But if you change the person’s capabilities, he is no longer a shoiteh. IIRC a shoiteh is someone who doesn’t even understand that things fall down and not up. There was a man in my old shul who was born very delayed (his mother had an infection when she carried him L”A), and he was able to be taught enough to put on tefillin. A shoiteh? I don’t think so or the rav would never have told him to put on tefillin. His capacity was far lower than that of a teenager with Down’s who also davened with us at times.

    But 2 generations ago at least one of these people would have been hidden away in a home and never would have learned anything. He would have been classified as a shoiteh.

    #800794

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I plan to vote for Obama in 2012. But this is really irrelevant to this thread.

    A shoitah l’davar echad is not a shoitah. 😉

    #800795

    I don’t think that voting for Obama is one of the three simanim of a shota. Maybe it should have been, but I don’t think it is.

    #800796

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DH –

    I don’t think that voting for Obama is one of the three simanim of a shota.

    That’s what I meant.

    One could argue, though that it’s m’abed mah shenosnim lo (if someone thinks Obama will destroy the U.S.).

    #800797

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Gemara mentions a story of two deaf men that would come to Beis Medrash. At one point they got their hearing back and showed themselves to be very learned. So we see that there was an awareness of the possibility of a Cheresh being as smart and learned as anyone else.

    As for the Shotte, I can’t see why it should be any different. Depression was never a sign of a Shotte. Acting foolish ans senseless was the point.

    I once heard a story of boy who had no social understanding whatsoever. His father sent him to a tutor to train him to be normal. He came home perfectly normal and so his father figured it’s time to marry him off. As they were sitting by his Tena’im, people came by to shake his hand. In front of him was a pitcher, with its side facing the young man. As everyone stuck out their hand to him, he put his hand through the handle of the pitcher, being the shortest route, and shook their hand. The father was aghast. He turned to the tutor and asked him, “is this what I’ve been paying for!?” The tutor answers, “How should I have thought of the possibility of a pitcher being in front of him, at his Tena’im, in the perfect angle?”

    The point is there is only a certain amount you can teach.

    #800798

    Sam2
    Participant

    The definition of a Shoteh does not change over time but the indicators definitely can. A Shoteh is not someone who does foolish or stupid things. It is someone who is mentally incapable of understanding or functioning around people. A case-by-case basis would probably require a Rabbi ruling on the advice of a psychologist.

    A Cheireish that can neither hear nor speak in today’s day and age has been a tremendous argument between the Poskim since the mid-1800s. There are valid arguments and opinions on both sides.

    #800799

    Josh31
    Participant

    Deafness used to be a tremendous social disability.

    Now with the new generation doing all its communications thru texting, it may become much less so.

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