Stealing the Afikomon

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  • #1709803

    RG – I had no questions on what you thought you were doing. I was letting you know (without the detailed illustration of the obvious procedure) that your elevated self confidence rating is clouding your ability to see reality.

    #1709841

    People who think they know everything become annoyed when they meet someone that actually does.

    The reality check is needed for those that think they know and spout their thoughts irresponsibly and get offended when their ignorance is proven.

    There are no clouds in my forecast.

    #1709850

    bottom line is that I can cite chapter and verse to back points I raise.

    All the while distorting what it says, as clearly demonstrated in your bedikas chometz thread.

    #1709849

    People who think they know everything become annoyed when they meet someone that actually does.

    The reality check is needed for those that think they know and spout their thoughts irresponsibly and get offended when their ignorance is proven.

    Ah, the perfect placed to apply your favorite dictum, kol haposel…

    #1709889

    I am not posel anyone.
    Those that were possul were possul long before my involvement.
    And I mean no one in particular.
    (But if the shoe/hat/glove fits – it was intended for that person).

    I am mechanech!

    I am marbitz Torah!

    I am mochayach (which is a chiyuv of Hochayach Tochiach – so it is a mitzva assei)!

    Everyone should do these.

    And no one’s feathers should become ruffled if I point out their mistake.

    #1709897

    not sure why I am bothering to speak to a wall but the reality you are missing (it’s so hard to see in front of you when your nose is pointed upward) is that the people you are putting down are doing EXACTLY what you claim to be doing for EXACTLY the same reason. But you are so sure you are the only right(eous) one that you can’t decipher the facts on the ground.

    #1710177

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I actually think it was somewhat of a misunderstanding. All of Reb’s proofs were for the din of stolen matzah, not mitzvah habaah b’aveirah. It seems like he thought I was talking about stolen matzah specifically rather than the misuse of a certain concept. I don’t think his subsequent comments were made after seeing my reply; it seemed like things got posted in a weird order. It might have just been my computer.

    #1711156

    Bottom line, do you announce that the afikoman is hefker before the children steal it, so that they should not be oiver on geneivah ( which applies even as a joke or game). Parents are required to prevent their children from fom being oiver aveiros, and the simple solution is to make the afikomon hefker. Do you do this, or not? If not, why don’t you?

    #1711455

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Are we finally getting back to the original attention of this thread, which is to practice the holy Chabad minhag of criticizing the minhag of stealing matzah?

    #1712037

    Mammele
    Participant

    While you’re all busy racking your brains over this troll-worthy thread and the halachik ramifications therein, I’m breaking my head over the possibility that Rebbetzin G. Is actually a reincarnation of Poppa Bar Abba. Thoughts?

    #1712065

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Mammele,

    “I’m breaking my head over the possibility that Rebbetzin G. Is actually a reincarnation of Poppa Bar Abba. Thoughts?”

    Nah. Popa did not mess with halacha when he trolled: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lying-on-ywn/#post-596054

    #1712086

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Is actually a reincarnation of Poppa Bar Abba. Thoughts?”

    0 chance. Although, we all miss him enough to start randomly seeing him where he is not, this is not his style. His “trolling” was always pretty much just playful stuff that everyone enjoyed. Rebbitzin has seemingly created one of the most advanced, complex troll accounts in CR history.

    I respect Rebbitzin in a lot of ways. It’s accounts like his that keep the CR interesting, but I have to wonder what kind of person would be behind such an account. It has to be someone who is relatively learned, probably went to yeshiva, and yet uses that knowledge exclusively for trolling.

    #1712103

    Mammele
    Participant

    AMD: Thanks for the link, and you’re probably right. The possibility still exists though that since he’s using a different screen name, he’s taken a different approach and his standards here have changed.

    #1712496

    “It has to be someone [or a cabal: ca·bal /kəˈbäl,kəˈbal/noun a secret political clique or faction] who is relatively learned [ah, the theory of relativity applied], probably went to yeshiva [or seminary], and yet uses that knowledge exclusively for trolling [unless he day job is a Rosh Kollel].” Brilliant.

    #1712667

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Brilliant.”
    Thank you.

    #1714237

    Pesach g
    Participant

    Along a similar topic (I dont want to start a new thread but this fits well and it looks like only @rebbitzin knows how to start them)
    Especially for this year
    we know the reason we dont blow shofar on shabbos and shake lulav on shabbos and (megilah shabbos purim) is because rabah gzeira so the question is like this: shouldnt he have made a gezaira for pesach too? I mean there are allot of halachos regarding matzah and daled kosos so shouldn’t he have been scared that someone might take thier matzah to the rov and thus be carrying on shabbos?

    #1714254

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Just wondering
    Are you mafkir the food in your fridge? Otherwise every time your kid takes an apple they are stealing.
    Or do we understand that there is a tacit understanding that the food there is available to all in the household so there is no problem
    Same would apply to the matzah that you are well aware your kids are going to ”steal ”

    #1714465

    Pesach g – no gezeira of “shema yavirena” by pessach (as by shofer, lulov) because it is Leil Shimurim from all mazikim (Hashem guards us not just from physical but also spiritual downfalls).

    But the Sedei CHemed writes that on pessach there is “nothing to ask” the Rov e.g. the shiyurim are the same as every shabbos etc. According to the Sedei Chemed’s quoted source, there are no shaylos to ask on pessach!

    #1714466

    klugeryid -“Are you mafkir the food in your fridge? Otherwise every time your kid takes an apple they are stealing.” There is a HUGE nafka mina! The food in fridge is for all to take.

    Here (1) the kids “steal” the afikomon. Taken davka without permission! and
    (2) no, we do NOT allow ONE kid to keep the ENTIRE afikomon which needs to be distributed,

    So, here we are makpid and there is no implied consent. Iit isn’t like a kid taking some milk or cookie which we aren’t makpid.

    #1714515

    Pesach g – the whole concept of “shema yavirena” is ahavas yisroel.

    Every single yid must no blow shofer on the Yom Hadin of Rosh Hashana wheniit is shabbos, even gedolei yisroel.

    Why?

    Because there might be an am ha’aretz, that doesn’t daven with a minyan on Rosh Hashana, and needs to do the mitzva of shofer, but doesn’t know how, so this pusta am haaretz might forget it is shabbos and carry the shofer to the Rov to learn how to blow it – that’s why all of ius cannot blow shofer on Rosh Hashona she’chal lihus b’shabbos.

    Look how much concern Chazal have for a pusta am haaretz!,

    Do you think it would fly today, that we (whole klal yisroel) would give up shofer to prevent a “different” kind of yid from “possibly” being mechalel shabbos?!

    #1714527

    Pesach g
    Participant

    rebbitzin
    I like that vort. I think you should write a sefer .

    You can say the same thing regarding lulav and shofar that carrying is the same as any other shabbos

    Or
    Dont you think that if someone comes home from shul and finds that his kids stole all the matza besides for the one he hid (just in case) and he sees that the one he hid is actually very small and is not sure if it is a kazayis. We should be scared that he might be so excited about the matza that he will run outside to the rovs house to find out if its the correct size. without realizing that he is carrying.

    #1714539

    Pesach g
    Participant

    Also regarding leil shimurim it says in halacha that if there are mazikim in the area then you shouldnt leave the door unlocked.
    I think we can apply the same thing here if we are worried that someone might carry then we got to be very careful with what is mutar and asur.

    #1714572

    “lulav and shofar that carrying is the same as any other shabbos” – we know what a kzayis and a rebiis is because we are always eating and drinking (and that is the basic chiyuv of lel pessach – to eat matza, morar and drink the kossos), but we don’t always blow shofar to know the proper tekiyos and brochas (litkoah or lishmoah kol shofar), and we don’t always shake the lulov (How to hold, directions, brochas – al netlah or al lekicha).

    ” if we are worried that someone might carry” – that is not motzuy (common), that the guy should totally forget it is shabbos. A mazik that is not motzuy, we are not concerned about on leil shimurim (but Chazal were worried about it on Rosh Hashana and Sukkos – enough to be mevatel a mitzvah assay, just to prevent the remote possability that a pusta amm haaretz will forget it is shabbos, so on yid does that mitzva assay that year! What tremendous caring for another yid, mesiras nefesh, giving up spiritual gains of a mitzva asasay, just so that another yid does not falter)..

    #1714574

    If you followed the other threads, my soon to be published sefer, named to include a remez of my husband’s name, Horav Hagaon שאול Shlita. It will be a best seller, filled with the most unique and different and interesting plus “interesting” ideas, named מִבֶּ֧טֶן שְׁא֛וֹל (based on Yona 2:3: ויאמר קראתי מצרה לי אל ה’ ויענני מבטן שאול שועתי שמעת קולי)

    #1714625

    Pesach g
    Participant

    I don’t know about shiurim and I am usually very machir in kazeisim just to make sure I had the correct shiur and I’m sure most ppl are the same
    But pesach if you only have a small matza how are you to know if it is a kazayis

    What about knowing how much water to add to dilute the wine for the arba kosos assuming were talking about wine that doesn’t already have water in it from the company

    Or knowing if the bubble or fold in your matza is a problem or not

    I think there are much more dinim in matza and 4 kosos then in Lulav and shofar.

    #1714697

    You are very machmir in kazeisim, so you would know the shiyur for Bentching on bread whenever you eat! When youmake kiddush every shabbos you need a reviis. True today we have many shaylos, as you mention a bubble in the matza, but in times of Sedei CHemed, people made their own matza, examined them and settled all their question before pessach. Likewise they made their own wine and knew how much water to add during the process. In any event, that is what the Sedei CHemed writes (he is a melaket, so it is from a sefer he collected from).

    There are other answers why Chazal werenot gozer by pessach shechal b’shabbos not to eat matza (morror or daled kosos), but here is notthe ofrum.

    In brief, al pi Kabbala and nistar, Shabbos accomplishes whatever shofer and lulov does, therefore when ROsh Hashana is on shabbos, the drawing of malchus is accomplished by the Shabbos Malkasa, hence there is no need for shofar, and since a michshal can happen of shema yaverena, CHazal abolished the mitzva assay of shofar, sinc it is unneccessary. Same by lulov. However, shabbos cannot accomplish the hamshocha of matza etc therefore Chazal did not abolish these mitzvos when pessach is on shabbos.

    #1714788

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rav Tosfas Yom Tov asks the kashye why aren’t we gozer on laining on shabbos? The answer can be that there is no mitzva on each individual to lain on shabbos, but to make sure that laining is being done. So he could be reminded by others when he wants to carry. On Parshes Zachor there is a mitzva to lain, but it is a small amount compared to the megilla, so he won’t know how to lain is not a problem. Why would he carry matzah because he won’t know how much to eat, so eat more. Someone said kugel adds up to shabbos but it doesn’t , so it more.

    #1714885

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The answer can be that there is no mitzva on each individual to lain on shabbos”

    Why not say the same for shofar? I’m confused on the original kasheh. Why would a person be any more likely to carry matzah/wine on Pesach then he would be to carry challah/wine on a normal Shabbos?

    My kasheh has always been why we have to eat in the sukkah on Shabbos. At least with lulav you could shake it in your house. Eating in the sukkah guarentees that you will carry outside. How do people do it who live in Brooklyn or Manhattan?

    #1715029

    Neville, in times a Chazal, either the sukkah was in the chotzer, surrounded by walls, or more likely, all the foods were prepared and left in the sukkah: the oven was outside, the fridge didn’t exist, they actually lived in the sukkah with their possessions and food.

    #1715020

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think a sukkah is not built in Reshus Horabim which belongs to the public.

    #1715011

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By lainng the mitzva is not a mitzva on the individual but on the tzibur whereas by shofar everyone is responsible individually to listen so people are busy and will not remind him. This is the meaning of הכל חייבים.

    #1715067

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I think a sukkah is not built in Reshus Horabim which belongs to the public.”

    It’s a machlokes Machaber/Rema, which leads to a different question of how Ashkenazim keep sukkos at all in Brooklyn and Manhattan.

    You might have just stumbled upon a really good support for the Rema’s psak: the fact that chazal were not gozer on carrying food out to the sukkah proves that they held of the one who says we can’t build sukkos in a reshus harabim.

    #1715124

    lasken. you adopt the Tzitz Eliezer which disputes Reb Moshe.

    Reb Moshe in Igros Moshe O.Ch. vol 4, s. 23 holds that the chiyuv of kriyas haTorah is on the yochid.

    In contrast, the Tzitz Eliezer(15, 5) argues on Reb Moshe and holds the chiyuv is only on the tzibur.

    The Bi’ur Halacha in s. 143 seems to also hold it is a chiyuv on the yochid (therefore it doesn’t suffice that the tzibur hears kriya, he as an individual must listen to each word).

    The Birchas Shmuel asked the GRACH and he discusses it in Megillah 23b.

    My point, lasken, I don’t think you or I can decide when there is a machlokes, certainly not to decide against Reb Moshe and ignore his words.

    #1715174

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    According to SA O’CH 146,2 says according to a view, if ten people listen to laining, you can learn quietly.
    see MB 8

    #1715206

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This view above is the Behag’s view whose explanation is that once ten people are listening, there is no responsibiility on you because the chiyuv isv on the tzibur and not on the individual.

    #1715207

    Are you saying Reb Moshe didn’t know a halacha on S.A. or a MB? Before you decide leining is a chiyuv on tzibur and not like Reb Moshe that holds it’s a chiyuv on yachid, at least review what he writes (that’s why I wrote the mareh mokom / citation). The Tzitz Eliezer argues on Reb Moshe, so see his reasoning. But it takes nerve for someone like us to announce that Reb Moshe was wrong because it says so in S.A. and MB.

    #1715266

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    DId you look at the SA above where there are multiple views. Since the Tziitz Elieaer holds like this view and
    Reb Moshe does not reveal his source plus most hold laining on shabbos is miderabonon, I am allowed to follow this view, specially from the Behag who was fron the gaonim. No one said Reb Moshe is wrong.

    #1715604

    You are allowed to follow any possek you wish, and certainly the Tzitz Eliezer is a “bar samcha” one on whom you can rely, and he holds that laining is a mitzva on the tzibur/communal, contrary to Reb Moshe view that ,it is on the yochid/individual.

    However, when you state blankly, “lainng the mitzva is not a mitzva on the individual but on the tzibur” as a if that is a fact, without dispute or controversy, that statement misleads the public reading your posting. You MUST acknowledge that there is a dispute, and according to ONE OPINION (the Tzitz Eliezer) lainingis is on the tzibur/communal.

    To clarify, you can hold as you wish, but don’t decide for everyone that the Tzitz Eliezar is right and by implication – Reb Moshe is wrong.

    Furthermore, when you post to assert that laining is on the tzibur/communal,, “According to SA O’CH 146,2 says according to a view, if ten people listen to laining, you can learn quietly. see MB 8”, implies that Reb Moshe “missed a halacha in S.A. or MB, which is disrespectful.

    To clarify, once you are told that Reb Moshe holds different, by posting S.A. or MB (seemingly in support of “your” view), are you trying to shlog op Reb Moshe and prove him wrong?!

    I find the comments disturbing and not in line with kovod haTorah.

    #1716251

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, Please try not to lecture me what kavod haTorah is. I tried to answer the Tosfas Yom Tov kashye. It happens to be that Rav Sternbuch Shlita in Moadim Uzmanim 166, says the same thing I said bringing a prove from the above SA. ברול שכוונתי It seems you enjoy arguing for the sake of it bringing you to be disturbed. I repeated what I learned in the Yeshiva. The SA gives multiple views so we say אלו ואלו דברי אלקים חיים.

    #1716399

    Laskern- don’t engage! He’s just baiting you because you were a strong voice on the chabad thread. Its a sick revenge that he has convinced himself is an altruistic way to “teach you a lesson”. (He seems to see himself in Gd’s role r”l)
    Walk away. Please.

    #1716565

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The SA gives multiple views so we say אלו ואלו דברי אלקים חיים.”

    RGP seems to be saying that the way you presented it was more of a “my way or the highway” approach. This was originally about chiyuvs that are lifted on Shabbos to avoid carrying. You brought in laining as an example of a purely communal chiyuv. That proof only really works if everyone agrees to that interpretation, which even you admit they don’t. Then, everything got sidetracked and you said “I am allowed to follow this view, specially from the Behag who was fron the gaonim.” That was a mistake. You were in the middle of bringing a mashal for another debate, but you made it about the personal use of a shittah with that statement.

    No matter which opinion you follow, I still don’t understand how this differentiates between laining and shofar.

    #1717279

    Neville – I am so proud of you – you understand me!

    Most posters here don’t.

    Consider yourself among the 1%.(intellectually gifted).

    Yasher koach (I can’t believe you really are Chabad, but it’s never too late for you to join the Litvish world – shuv yom echos kodom).

    #1717393

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Well, you know, it’s like us Lubavitchers say, there are 2 types of Jews: Lubavitchers, and people who don’t know they’re Lubavitch yet. We probably understand each other so well because we’re both hard core Lubavitchers, regardless of how you identify.

    #1717409

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Neville, go back to the Yeshiva and learn to understand the difference.

    #1717484

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville, go back to the Yeshiva and learn to understand the difference.”

    In other words, you don’t know either. Well, I’m glad to see I’m not alone.

    #1717650

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I was sarcastic. The difference was explained before. Shofar is a responsibility on each individual to listen not just on tzibur whereas krias hatorah is the responsibility only on the tzibur, once ten people listen, you don’t have an individual responsibility to listen, but obviously don’t walk out in the middle of laining for kavod haTorah not like krias haMegilla. See Moadim Uzmanim 166 on Parshas Zachor.

    #1718842

    laskern – once again, you are a repeat offender! You ignore totally (you are not “go’rayce”) Reb Moshe that holds that krias hatorah is on the YOCHID. At least acknowledge that what you said is only according to select opinions that hold contrary to the Possek Hador of America. The complete lack of kovod Hatorah is disturbing.

    #1719127

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, reference incorrect for Tzitz Eliezer should be 18,5 who brings other sources like Derech Chaim on laining from the Nesivos.

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