July 27, 2008 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1236514frumcoupleParticipant
I felt compelled to write as I have recently been a victim of this system in our community whereby people desperate for a cleaning lady offer excess pay in order for them to leave their current employer (another frum family) and come work by them. Is this halachically permissable?? We all cry and complain about the increasing hourly rates that even our Lakewood Nashim do not earn when they go out to work, and yet it is OUR community that keep raising these prices – which is why my neighbours lady recently demanded $12 an hour or quit! she quit as they refused to be blackmailed, and lo and behold the next day she was working by another frum family for $12. What is the solution for this? How can you sleep at night when you know that on EREV PESACH you put another person through so much tzar for your own selfish needs. Yes we know how desperate you are but did that give you a right to offer a lady more hours, more pay in order to leave her original employment?
In Europe the cleaning ladies are paid 4 pounds – do you want to know why? because families dont fight each other to snatch them away by constantly offering more pay? Who are the losers and who are the winners??? We are the big sore losers, and it is all self inflicted.
I wish to thank the lady who asked me to loan my cleaning lady for ONE TUESDAY as she was renovating and didnt have anyone – Shalom Cleaning Lady – she is now working full time by this so called ex-friend.
Your view would be interestingFebruary 15, 2022 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #2060781Johnny PicklesauceParticipant
That’s straight up rishus, lady. rishus!February 15, 2022 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #2060816GadolhadorahParticipant
Such actions are fundamentally prohibited in the Aseres H’adibros Shamos (20:17)
לא תחמוד את המנקה של רעךFebruary 15, 2022 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2060831yungermanSParticipant
So lets be honest. Who’s the one that’s responsible halachically when neighbors and others offer a cleaning lady more money and she takes on the job of course to switch to the new offer job for better pay.
Who’s responsible halachically for causing the PRICE of cleaning ladies to go waaaaaay up for the entire town and not just for one person? Causing major additional expenses to families who are very tight in their budgetFebruary 15, 2022 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2060832Amil ZolaParticipant
Do you live in the US? Free market. Domestic workers can ask for more than what you expect to pay. They are free to seek employment elsewhere if not satisfied. Frankly I cannot remember when my domestic workers got less than $20/hr. on the books.February 15, 2022 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2060840CTLAWYERParticipant
$12 an hour is ridiculously low in 2022. Here in CT minimum wage is $14 an hour. If I could trust this cleaning person in my home with my possessions he/she had better be worth and paid far more than minimum wage. We have been paying $25 the past year, and during the worst of the pandemic in 2020 and early 2021 were paying $40.February 15, 2022 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #2060844commonsaychelParticipant
Wow most trolls have a drop of imagination, this one does not, he/she reposted the same drivel that was posted 5 years ago verbatim. Please look up this troll history and see for yourself.February 15, 2022 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #2060841ujmParticipant
YungermanS: What’s the answer to your question?February 15, 2022 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2060843☕️coffee addictParticipant
The other comments seem to be hereFebruary 16, 2022 3:56 am at 3:56 am #2060874Johnny PicklesauceParticipant
common saychel: Actually, if you’d like to know, it was my fault; I went to the last page of threads, saw this one, and replied to this “frumcouple” from 2008, that’ll probably never see this thread rejuvinate. Sorry.February 16, 2022 8:13 am at 8:13 am #2060904yungermanSParticipant
I can’t answer you Halachically cause I’m not a Rabbi all i can say is that in NY honest opinion it is very wicked and uncaring for someone to offer more money at the price of hundreds of others paying less just so they can find a quick cleaning lady without spending time searching and then it only gets worse cause then all cleaning ladies raise their prices.February 16, 2022 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #2060875
> Causing major additional expenses to families who are very tight in their budget
On one hand, we have halakha of not competing with another Jew when he is doing business with a non-Jew. This typically applies when a non-Jewish aristocrat hires a Jewish tradesman. I am wondering whether this still holds when the power differential is reversed, In this case, we presumably talk about Jewish employers (who possibly chose not to work themselves) hiring (possibly illegal, not speaking English) workers (possibly not paying employment taxes) lacking a lot of legal protections. While we may not be obligated to care about these workers as we would for Jews, it is not clear that one _has_ to participate in this race to the bottom in order to spare expenses to others.
editedFebruary 17, 2022 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #2061596ChananiaLParticipant
Is this a joke? Anything less than $15 is plain immoral in 2022.February 17, 2022 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #2061642ujmParticipant
Chanania: The OP was posted in 2008, not 2022. (That’s an almost 14 year old CR post.)February 17, 2022 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2061649ChananiaLParticipant
ujm: Siily me for not noticing. Back in 2012 I worked at a job that paid $10 an hour. Things have gotten a lot more expensive since then.March 6, 2022 8:00 am at 8:00 am #2066469speak up am YisroelParticipant
this is not a joke you never know what the person you stole her from is going thru.March 6, 2022 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #2066593ubiquitinParticipant
Why is this thread limited to cleaning help?
I got a call from a headhunter this week telling me about a job availability that paid more.than I currently get
I yelled at him “Is this halachically permissable?? How can you sleep at night when you know that you put another person through so much tzar for your own selfish needs. Yes we know how desperate you are but did that give you a right to offer more pay in order to leave my original employment?”
Was this the correct response? OR is there a special rule (legal or halachic) governing cleaning help ?March 6, 2022 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #2066631
ubi, employer/employee relationship is a contract, but not of equals. Halakha recognizes it. Employee has an aspect of avdut as employer control employee’s time. So, employee is allowed to quit without prior notice. There might be an issue of damages if someone is not done on time or spoils, but the employer should let employee go even if this causes inconvenience in order not to enslave him.
So, it should be possible for employee to consider another job. On the other hand, you should be sensitive and not to take away a job from a Jew who is already working, unless it is a rare opportunity that is important for you.March 6, 2022 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2066655ubiquitinParticipant
My question wasn’t about my leaving
It was about the headhunter. The headhunter who approached me seems no different than someone approaching cleaning help.
There are no doubt halachic issues Ani hamehapecha becharara comes to mind, yet the yonly seem to come up in thse cases. I’m wondering why that is. Is there a halachic difference?March 6, 2022 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #2066703GadolhadorahParticipant
Outside of government, collective bargaining agreements and certain “key personnel” working under a contract, virtually all other professional employment these days is “at will” . That means your employer can terminate you without having to provide any reason unless you are a member of a “protected class” . You may feel “loyalty” to your employer and provide some advance notice but you are NOT legally obligated to do so. A headhunter contacting you is within his/her rights to explore your interest in pursuing a new opportunity at higher pay, subject to whatever non-compete agreement you may have entered into.March 6, 2022 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #2066704
ubi, a good question. If you are allowed to search for a new job, then why can’t someone help you in that? Maybe the difference is who is Jewish in various scenarios. Would result be different if the babysitter were Jewish? If you have a chance to give a Jewish babysitter a better job, is this wrong?
But re:headhunter, even if it is mutar, you may not want to do that job yourself. Similar to meter-maids – they do a necessary job, but who wants the ayn hara!? (I once put a quarter into someone’s meter when the metermaid was coming and she gave me an ayn hara back!).March 7, 2022 8:18 am at 8:18 am #2066795commonsaychelParticipant
Bottom line, slavery ended when Robert E Lee surrendered. No one owns someone else.
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