February 5, 2012 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #601923
Will stepping over someone cause that person to stop growing? As a child I was always warned about this omen. Source?February 5, 2012 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1222613
And if you mistakenly stepped over someone, should you reverse it by stepping over him again in reverse? That’s how I remember being instructed to reverse the effect.February 5, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1222614
Ridiculous superstition. Where is your family from? The people I know who go crazy over it are Russian-Polish (meaning Pale of Settlement that changed hands a few times).February 5, 2012 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1222615
Rav Kanievsky was asked this question in shailos rav and he answered nashim nahgu lahacmir I think that was the exact lashon.February 5, 2012 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1222616
To the great bear..
I don’t think it’s so wise to jump to such ridicule. There might just be a credible source to it. Things like this passed from mother to daughter…February 5, 2012 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1222617
i think its something all children worry about but as adults we seem to be fully grown eventhough our siblings/friends inevidably at one point stepped over us.
(I x mean to mach aveck if there really is a source but i x think there is.)February 6, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1222618
Sorry, but I know shtus when I see it! I wasn’t sure what the halacha was for gezel sheina from someone who isn’t bas mitzvah, so I stepped over the local rav’s 8 or 9 year old daughter in order not to wake her when I was at his house one Shabbos or YT. His rebbetzin flipped; he himself looked at me reassuringly and tried to signal to his wife not to make a fool of herself in front of people who didn’t grow up with shtus like this. I had to step over the girl the other way! I must say, that if it had been my first exposure to frum people, I would not have been very impressed.February 6, 2012 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1222619
a lot of these “intreasting” things that we do and dont know the source seem to come from kablah i wonder if this also does cuz so many diffrent background of pp grew up with it it has to have some sort of sourceFebruary 6, 2012 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1222620
-“Sorry, but I know shtus when I see it!”
Second time around. Did you peek at sam4321’s response?February 6, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1222621
Darchei Ha’emori.February 6, 2012 6:29 am at 6:29 am #1222622
I looked up the shailos rav to make sure and it said minhag nashim l’hakpid.February 6, 2012 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1222623
Sam2: Source?February 6, 2012 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1222624
Yes, I read it: minhag nashim lehakpid or in the original erroneous version – same message.
Ever hear of loshon sagi nahor? One glimpse at this and I know exactly what Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a means. He doesn’t want to say it outright because it’s harmless in most cases, but it is very clear what he thinks of it.
For those who don’t understand – hint – nashim daasan kalois. Alternately, why do we call shtussim bubbamaises and not zaidemaases?
If you or any other non-related adult had been in the house with me, you would have felt very embarrassed for me after the rebbetzin (whom I know for 20 years – otherwise I would have taken it very differently) started to panic over nonsense that has no place in Yiddishkeit.February 6, 2012 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1222625
As a kid I used to lay on the floor, reading books. If a cousin or someone would step over my, my mother would make them step back over me in the other direction.February 6, 2012 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1222626
Golden mom, a lot of what we do and don’t know the source comes from peasant folk superstition. Don’t blame shtusim on the Holy Kabalah.February 6, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1222627
Sam4: The lack of a source is the source.February 6, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1222628
Sam2: Rav Chaim is one source already mentioned. So sources aren’t lacking.February 6, 2012 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1222629
A source is a source, of course, of course
But it all depends on how you interpret that source!February 6, 2012 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1222630
The question was what is the source so Rav Chaim gave a source. If it was shtus or darchei ha’emori he would say so.”He doesn’t want to say it out right” I disagree, what he holds he says.February 6, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1222631
Great Bear, making a Drush out of his words is being insincere. It is mentioned in other Sefarim that unless you know otherwise you have to accept the Mesoros from your mother.
Sam2, we don’t make up Darkei Ha’emoris. The Chida writes that only those things that Chazal mentioned are Darkei Ha’emori, since they specifically knew that they are baseless.
This is somewhat reminiscent of the Gemara about not passing under the saddle of a donkey. Does that one make so much more sense to you?February 6, 2012 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1222632
Rav Chaim gave a source
That is NOT a source. In any case, I am sure I could get a posek to ossur it if Rav Chaim doesn’t. If I remember, I will try to ask Rav Wosner shlit”a as he seems to be the posek for most Chassidim and is accepted by most everyone else as well.
Calling this Toras Emecho is way out of line. It is also not darchei haemori – it is shtus. Anyone knows that stepping over someone does not retard growth. I guess in Chelm or Szarkonosvary, some poor yosoim who slept in shul had a growth hormone deficiency, and the local ibber-chachoomim blamed his short stature on his having been stepped over by mispalelim in the first minyan (11.00 AM in those 2 cities) who did not see him sleeping on the floor!
If you had seen my face when I was confronted with this DRECK, and that is what it is, you would have been reminded about halbanas ponim. Had I not been as strong as I was at the time, I might have said – hmm..frum Jews believe this nonsense? What else of what they believe is nonsense?
This shtus has to be removed from Yiddishkeit. This is nothing compared to the clowns who engage in lead pouring, and that is nothing compared to alternative medicine (which Rav Blumenkranz AH called A”Z and kishuf) and vitamin supplement scams. All of this garbage has to be purged from Klal Yisroel.February 7, 2012 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1222633
Reb Ber: Perhaps you can understand — if not agree with — those who place shirayim in the same category?February 7, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1222634
Shirayim is something you can take or leave (we don’t have it in my Chassidus and I never went to a tish where a Rebbe gave them out though I probably would if time ever permits me to do so). You either go to the tish to get it – or you don’t. You either hold by Rebbe Aleph or Beis – or by Gimmel – or by no one. All is well and I fully do understand those who have no interest in shirayim. It certainly does not compare to superstitions except if you misunderstand them and the role of a Rebbe who may give them out.
If you think chapping shirayim will cure illness, and you use it instead of medicine, then yes, by all means it belongs in that category and if you tell people to go to get them for that reason, you are a dangerous fool.
I purposely used some wine I got from my Rebbe years ago to rid myself of a skin infection that I noticed one night – and as I expected, it did not work. The cream I picked up the next morning did the job. My Rebbe would have told me on no uncertain terms to <b>cut it out</b> if he had been with us at the time and I had written him to tell him it did work and that I was going to hand it out to others. If I had arak from Baba Sali – or from Nissim SuperZol in Machane Yehuda – it probably would have worked because arak has mild antibacterial properties and wine does not. If your reason for shirayim is based on Chassidus, and therefore far more than I can explain al regel achas, then it is not in that category at all. And if you have no interest – don’t go – it is not a doraisa!
Baba Sali ZYA himself said that if you truly believe in Hashem and His infinite power you don’t need his water for a brocho – ordinary tap water will do.February 7, 2012 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1222635
Reb Leibel AH’s l’chaim would have worked even better than the Baba Sali’s arak — he drank 96!
Regarding shirayim altz real chassidus as opposed to superstition, I have some serious hashkafa problems with the practice and my rebbeim all told me the same thing you did: nu, don’t take!February 7, 2012 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1222636
The Great Bear of Creedmoor:
Interesting you should pick precisely this week for your rants.
(1) The source of Emunas Tzadikim, ??????? ??’ ????? ????.
(2) The source of Shirayim, ?????? ?? ?’ ?’ ???? ?? ???? (3.
(3) The source of mockery, scorn, derision – ???? ????!
No, we’re not a superstitious people. But it’s the way one puts to pen (keyboard) that shows… I have not learned much, but I suppose baalei mussar don’t take a liking to letzonus.February 7, 2012 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1222637
I think the debritziner talks about it in Beer Moshe Chelek 7 Shailo 36February 7, 2012 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1222638
ZeesKite – both your darshening and your attitude is what drives people OTD. It would be perfect in the Beis Medrash d’ Westboro. Enjoy your life.February 7, 2012 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1222639
Saying that women are makpid in something in not necessarily the same as saying it should be done. I find it interesting that the same Rabbanim who hold that nashim have kalos daas (and I am sure a dozen of you will pounce on this to prove that I am a good example of that), also say nashim are makpid on some shtus or other, and imply therefore that this shtus should be followed. If our old wives’ tales (and please note, the Rov did NOT say it is kabbalah or halacha or even an eitzah tova, he basically said it was a woman’s thing)are valid, then our opinions should be weighed in other areas of halacha as well. JMO. (a little tongue in cheek).February 7, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1222640
The Great Bear of Creedmoor:
I’m sorry I caught your ire.
No, I’m not one to ‘darshen’. No. Not at all.
But I didn’t think it proper to mock or deride Yiddishe ‘inyanim’ with the wave of a hand.
As far as my attitude… well that’s another story.February 7, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1222641
oomis – 🙂February 7, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1222642
Zees, I think his point is that it’s ridiculous to call this a “Yiddish Inyan”, in his opinion.February 7, 2012 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1222643
Syag, the reason he didn’t say it is a Halacha is because it isn’t. He didn’t say it is from Sifrei Kabbala because it isn’t. He said that women are Makpid because that is the case.
Al Titosh Toras Imecha does not contradict anything Chazal taught us. The Gemara actually says to take advice from the wife in domestic or worldly matters. The Gemara says that a woman has a better perception of her guests. This does not contradict the other statement, that Noshim Daatan Kalos, that it is easier to convince a woman.
If you think about it, it is a balance. The advantage of being more intuitive is balanced by the ability to be easily convined, and the advantage of mostly logical reasoning is balanced by being unaware of small telltale signs.
All of this, however, is besides the point. The idea is that we don’t mock something that is Nahug, just because one person over-reacted to you about it, or because you can’t figure out why it should be the case.
I think it’s a good Minhag, anyhow. First of all, for safety reasons, it is a good idea not to walk over a baby, especially while holding something — let alone a dangerous object. Secondly, it is a respectful gesture to walk around someone instead of over them.February 7, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1222644
Shirayim = an example of Yiddishe inyanim that may be controversial. Since the practice is neither deorisa nor derabonnon, it is up to you to decide as there is nothing harmful either way.
Superstition = goyishe inyanim that crept into our world from the same neighbors who tormented us for centuries. Anyone who believes that stepping over a child retards growth needs to learn very basic human biology – or ask a frum doctor to explain that growth hormone cannot be affected by such an action.
Malignant superstition or misplaced belief = believing that anything can take the place of modern medicine in treating diagnosed illnesses or of work in creating parnosso. When we say tehillim for Rav Elyashiv shlita, we know full well that Hashem will grant refuah shelema through his doctors. If anyone were to recommend disconnecting so much as one machine or discontinuing so much as one medication based on anything other than sound medical advice or a clear examination showing this is the right course of treatment, that person is a murderer. Even in documented stories of nissim, the doctor made the final determination that the disease was no longer present – and many of the stories of nissim are of patients who went to the doctor because they were told to do so by Rebbes/tzaddikim or rabbonim.February 7, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1222645
oomis – 🙂
Whew! 🙂February 7, 2012 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1222646
HaLeivi – I was just laughing at her ‘listen to women’ joke, not involved in conversation at all, in any way.February 7, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1222647
Ah, so when you’ve done it once, you should do it again as a sign of respect? Step once retards growth – step twice reverses the effect?
Like Ahron Cohen, who went to Iran once, was welcomed back to Manchester with a full cherem and 1000 eggs, so he went again this week?
Cohen is from Szarkonosvary. Creedmoor shtams from Szarkonosvary. The difference between Chelm and Szarkonosvary is that in Chelm they sell bagel holes. In Szarkonosvary, they sell bagel hole options, derivatives and futures!February 7, 2012 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1222648
Great Bear, I didn’t mean to step all over you.February 7, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1222649
LOL if you step all over a bear (except when hibernating) you won’t have to worry about stepping over a child.February 7, 2012 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1222650
“This shtus has to be removed from Yiddishkeit. This is nothing compared to the clowns who engage in lead pouring, and that is nothing compared to alternative medicine (which Rav Blumenkranz AH called A”Z and kishuf) and vitamin supplement scams. All of this garbage has to be purged from Klal Yisroel. “
Great bear you are talking such nonsense i dont know why nobody has told you that yet.
There are many more rabonim who give haskomos for lead pouring and alternative medicine, in fact many who practice it themselves on the side, than rabonim who hold that stepping over someone and other such “bubbermaisos” are against yidishkeit.
“Superstition = goyishe inyanim that crept into our world from the same neighbors who tormented us for centuries. Anyone who believes that stepping over a child retards growth needs to learn very basic human biology – or ask a frum doctor to explain that growth hormone cannot be affected by such an action. “
Tell me one goy that believes that stepping over a child causes him to stop growing.
I dont know whether i believe in it or not, but better safe than sorry why play around with something like this just because you want to prove a point?February 8, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1222651
great bear: ?? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?? ?
.?? ? ? ? ? (??? ??) ?? ? ? ? ???? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ? ???February 8, 2012 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1222652
Sam, I am sorry, but I do not hold by that and it looks out of context. Bubbamaises are NOT Torah. They are Peerim Torah.
If I did not know better, that maase that I wrote about would have made me into another anti-frum blogger. In fact, I would have become an active member of Daat Emet had I believed that was Torah.February 9, 2012 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1222653
great bear: There are people who are cholek,but this is a famous Rashba(I don’t know how one argues on the Rashba without having some backup ). I don’t know what you mean out of context the Rashba made this statement. Gedolim have applied it to certain things women do and if women do it and we forgot the reason there is still something kodesh to it.March 8, 2017 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1222654
R’ Baruch R’Kuvsky (in Sefer Hakoton V’Hilchoisov) quotes what he heard from R’ Chaim Kanievsky: “Man D’Loi Kopit, Loi Kopti Bhadei.” So long as you’re not makpid about it, there’s nothing to be nervous about.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.